So many statements thrown around. Everyone got an opinion. But what do we base them on? Tiki speaks with emotions, Sun is the PC principal in southpark, myself base it on subjective preferences. Others have entirely different definitions on how to make a comparison of let's say La Liga and EPL.

So hear me out. Bottom-up. That's the way everything should be govern, and the way we start this analysis.

The revenue in EPL for 2014-15 is 4070m euros in comparison to La Ligas 2053m euros. The average club income is £155m for EPL in comparison to £77.5m for La Liga. And we all know which teams generate and receive most of that money. Luckily enough at least the tv rights will change with a new legislation that was passed at the end of April which will come into play start from 2016 season where La Liga will sell its TV rights collectively for all clubs and the income will be shared equally between clubs. Unlike the current system where clubs sell their rights independently causing massive difference income of top 2 and the rest of the clubs in spanish top flight.

However, In comparison EPL are miles ahead in this game with over £5 billion just from domestic rights sale and premier league are expecting another £3 billion from oversees rights which means starting from 2016-17 season bottom premier league club will earn around £100 million in tv rights money and thats way more than champions of the top leagues around europe.

So, that's the money part. But we all know that EPL clubs pay way more than most other clubs for similar talents right? Okay. Let's check the VALUE of the clubs i.e. the collected perceived value of the clubs and not the transfer sums. Beginning from the bottom up (according to transfermarkt - the most reliable source for this measure).

See a pattern? Obviously excluding the odd ones. Because money does not explain everything (Chelsea last season - Valencia this..), but the pattern is clear as day. The richer the clubs are the better players they can attract. In fact EPL pays higher wages than La Liga and Serie A combined with a weekly average of £43,717 to La Liga's £23,327 a week.

That's only money you say? Nopp. It's value, incentives AND money.

Now, to an older thread I created (and didn't finish before the transfer deadline) about the netto transfers. Is EPL a team that buys players or sells players? And the same for La Liga etc. You be the judge.

EPL

Arsenal In: 37.5 Out: 0 Net: -37.5
Bournemouth: In: 27.5 Out: 17.9 Net: -9.6
Burnely: In: 2.5 Out: 0 Net: -2.5
Chelsea: In: 65 Out: 12 net: -53
Crystal Palace: In: 23 Out: 9 net: -14
Everton: In 7.2 Out: 48 Net: + 40.8
Hull: In 4.5 Out: 0 Net: -4.5
Leicester: In: 35.1 Out: 39.5 Net: +4.4
Liverpool: In: 63.9 Out: 36 Net: -27.9
United: In: 123.2 Out: 0 Net; -123.2
City: In: 118 Out: 4.1 Net: -113.9
Middlesbrough: In: 18.8 Out: 0 Net: -18.8
Southampton: In: 22.8 Out: 56.7 Net: +33.9
Stoke: In: 18 Out: 0 Net -18
Sunderland: In: 8 Out: 0.7 Net -7.3
Swansea: In 2 Out: 27.9 Net: + 25.9
Spurs: In 29.5 Out: 8 Net: -21.5
Watford: In: 16.2 Out: 8.5 Net: -7.7
West B: In: 6 Out: 0 Net: -6
West Ham: In: 22.4 Out: 10 Net: -12.4

Total Net:-372.8m pounds Total revenue: 929,4m pounds

1.17 conversion rate to euros. Total Net: -436.2m€ Total revenue: 1087,4m€

**La Liga***

Alaves: In 0.55 Out: 0 Net: -0.55
Atletico: In: 79.5 Out: 9 Net: -70.5
Bilbao In: 0 Out: 0 Net: 0
Barcelona: In: 83.3 Out: 13.6 Net: -69.7
Celta: In: 7 Out: 13.5 Net: +6.5
Deportivo: In: 5.6 Out: 0 Net: -5.6
Eibar: In: 3.1 Out: 5 Net: +1.9
Espanyol: In: 9 Out: 0 Net: -9
Granada: In: 0 Out: 25.2 Net: +25.2
Las Palmas: In: 1.8 Out: 0 Net: +1.8
Leganes: In: 1 Out: 0 Net: -1
Malaga: In: 10.3 Out: 0 Net: -10.3
Osasuna: In: 0 Out: 3.8 Net: -3.8
Real Madrid: In: 27 Out: 37.5 Net: +10.5
Real Sociedad: In: 10.7 Out: 9.6 Net: -1.1
Real Betis: In: 15 Out: 8 Net: -7
Sevilla: In: 47.5 Out: 71 Net: +22.5
Sporting: In: 0.6 Out: 0 Net: -0.6
Valencia: In: 10 Out: 41.5 Net: +31.5
Villareal: In: 42 Out: 12.3 Net: -29.7

Total net: -108.95m€ Total revenue: 603,95m€

Now please compare the transfers for teams at the bottom side of the table in EPL and La Liga.

So, for your statements to be true, La Liga must have endlessly better scouts, youth systems and academies given that their resources are not nearly as big as EPL's. And I don't think they are. However, I do believe that Spain produce much better domestically products because of a better football climate and because of the corrupt FA. EPL has 66.4% foreign players while La Liga has 41.6%. I hold it for true that EPL buy a lot of good Spanish players. That's not what this is about though.

Do you need any other proof that EPL bottom teams are better than La Ligas? Just look at a game between them and a top team in the league. Look how they week in and out beat the top teams. Look how none of the matches in EPL are certain in advance. Where you surprised that Pool got beat the other day? I certainly wasn't. And before you watch the game have a look on the odds given from the pundits. Any 1.06 odds in EPL? Nopp.

Sources:
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/
http://www.totalsportek.com/money/tottenham-player-salaries/
https://www.rt.com/sport/345182-premier-league-wages-report/
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/european-big-four-leagues-goals-3513388
https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/study-reveals-premier-league-highest-155522255.html

That clickbait though

I'll accept that title, it's kind of justified.

If I understand you right, (if I don't feel free to correct me) your point looks like this:

P1: The EPL teams have a higher value than La Liga teams
P2: Teams with higher value perform better
C1: Therefore, EPL teams are better than La Liga teams

You then proceed to specify this argument to say:

P1: The bottom EPL teams have a higher value than bottom La Liga teams
P2: Teams with higher value perform better
C1: Therefore, bottom EPL teams are better than bottom La Liga teams

However, I could just as easily say:

P1: EPL teams have a higher value than La Liga teams
P2: Evidence over the last decade shows that in head-to-head competition, La Liga wins more often
C1: Therefore, a higher value does not mean that the EPL teams are better

There is no way to know for certain of course. The bottom teams never play one another, so conclusive evidence is just not there, only speculation. My issue with your perspective KTB is that this same logic doesn't work for the top or middle EPL teams, so why should I believe it works for the bottom ones? If you can give me a reason, I'll believe you, but right now I don't have one.

Agree with @Sun.

And:
Completely disagree in A LOT OF points especially regarding:

Do you need any other proof that EPL bottom teams are better than La Ligas? Just look at a game between them and a top team in the league. Look how they week in and out beat the top teams. Look how none of the matches in EPL are certain in advance. Where you surprised that Pool got beat the other day? I certainly wasn't.

That argument is blatantly dull, and it doesn't tell much about the league quality. It certainly imply that EPL is more competitive among bottom and top clubs. Also more exciting to watch (to certain fans). But exciting or not, it depends, I hate stupid kick and run, fast paces, crosses then loose the ball stupidly... I like technique, precision etc... that would be more exciting to me. And again, in Bundesliga, La Liga, SerieA there are thrilling matches like the Liverpool match too.

• This Liverpool lost is a shock too. You are the very few wasn't. The rest would just go: ohhh it's EPL anything can happen. But NO ONE every in the right mind would put all their money on the other option.
• A counter would be look at how Barca was outclassed in Sociedad. Chelsea vs Burneywould certainly be a win and otherwise a shock.
• The top 6 now is somewhat EXACTLY what we expected it to be if all top teams aren't too shit.

This dedate is going no where.

My sentence "not to start an argument" started an argument. That's me not being a farsighted. LoL!

@sun Yes, that's the essence of my argument, since there aren't any other way to compare. As the table suggests teams with a higher perceived value for their players perform better. Value is not price as that only suggests what teams are willing to pay (You're right about EPL over paying and inflate prices for players). In the long term this is most often the case. There's obviously more to it too. Good players must be able to perform as a team, but over the long term we'll have to assume that teams overcome temporarily imbalances in the team (Again - The difference between last year's Chelsea and this years).

EPL teams have been beat previous years out in Europe. No doubt about it. But by which teams? Barca, Real, Atletico? What are the perceived value of those teams? And are we talking about EL? Don't. We all know English teams don't perform there because the incentives to win it has been so small. too little money, as evident of which teams they play in it.

@tuan Pool had 1.73 in odds in before the game, which translates to 57% chance for Pool to win according to the pundits. Add to that their profit margins and they had Pool to win 50-50. I remember when they deservedly drew Spurs and beat Hull 6-1. I would definitively not call it a shock unless you refer to the way they won the game in last minute.

Okay, I get what you're saying with this sentence:

Just look at a game between them and a top team in the league. Look how they week in and out beat the top teams. Look how none of the matches in EPL are certain in advance.

It's just that, the EPL teams are fairly good this year. Haven't seen Chelsea perform this good in years. Pool are splendid too. City beat Barca easily in CL.. And still they manage to get beat by lower at the table teams. That's why I included the sentence in the first place. But agreed.

By the way, I'm editing your title to match your thread. Using clickbait like this is quite unnecessary.

"City beat Barca easily in CL... And still they manage to get beat by lower table teams"

And Barca smacked City 4-0.... only after they lost to Alaves 1-2 at home. With all due respect, I think you're drawing the wrong conclusions from the facts you are presenting. It's completely true that EPL teams are worth more, and one would assume that being worth more means playing better football. But apparently, according to the EL and CL results, that is not the case. You're right, the EPL is more competitive. No one can argue that. But are they better? Hmmm... seems like you'd have to look at head-to-head Spanish-English games for that. I genuinely think it's impossible to decide if a league is better than the other without looking at head-to-head matches.

Draw your own conclusions, but try to base it on something rather than subjectively speculate. Obviously H2H is better. Thousands of them, but that won't happen.

It's completely true that EPL teams are worth more, and one would assume that being worth more means playing better football.

This is not about how much the teams are worth. It's the collected perceived value of the players they possess. It's an estimated definite number; value as in the maximum utility of a good or service. EPL bottom teams simply has players that are perceived to be valued to sometimes twice the players of La Liga.

But apparently, according to the EL and CL results, that is not the case.

As I wrote. Again with the EL. Do you want me to go through the starting XI EPL teams put on for the occasion?. CL though.. sure, but again, bottom league teams do not usually participate in the international cups (Hey Leicester).

That's precisely the problem. H2H is the best way to gauge this problem, but we have no H2H results to base conclusions from. Which leaves anything and everything we say about the bottom teams to be pretty much relative. :/

@KTB

I'm happy that this thread is more civil. Some solid opinion sharing going on here.

In terms of what has been discussed so far, you did pretty much state that this is your point:

P1: The bottom EPL teams have a higher value than bottom La Liga teams
P2: Teams with higher value perform better
C1: Therefore, bottom EPL teams are better than bottom La Liga teams

In logic, you state a bunch of premises and make a conclusion. If all of the the premises are true, then the conclusion is as well. However, as can be proved by head-to-head meetings, higher value teams DO NOT perform better when comparing La Liga to EPL. Therefore, P2 is false in this argument, and because of that, C1 is as well.

If you could give me evidence that in a La Liga/EPL case basis that P2 is correct (I'd accept anything more than 50% of the time), then I would agree. However, as has been proved in the past on this forum, that isn't what the measurable data we have says. And without that measurable data, your argument has no real ground. You can speculate, but I think that this argument is better until I have information that says otherwise:

P1: EPL teams have a higher value than La Liga teams
P2: Evidence over the last decade shows that in head-to-head competition, La Liga wins more often
C1: Therefore, a higher value does not mean that the EPL teams are better

For what time period are we talking about? Last 5 years? A decade?
Let me share an image with you

Sorry for the big one from sky sports not all stats are useful for this thread but watch the tables of all teams.

@JozeMour: wonderful stuff mate. Thanks

Only draw back is that, the lower teams haven't match other significantly enough to draw any conclusion there. And I tend to talk about recent years (says 10 years at max).

Arsenal really doesn't do well vs Spain do they. jeez

Though to be honest, no one really does except Chelsea, who did have Barca's number for those few years at the turn of the decade.

Well @Joze's photo pretty much summed up which league is superior on the top half of the table.

As longest my Chelsea are lions when facing top La Liga teams . Other EPL fans Should put flowers at Stamford Bridge for keeping that 4th place . Just like to also point out Bolton never lost against spanish teams . Round of applause to the dead giant ..

EPL will get back to winning ways . Just relax . Money is flowing in and slowly they are being allocated correctly . Right now EPL teams are like kids at candy store with too much allowance buying any crap that is not healthy .

Joze put up some good information. To add to this conversation, I wanted to take the time to do a tiny research into 4 stats that I think could be compared between the bottom 10 teams of each league. I took the Average Rating, Average Possession, Shots per Game and Goals per Game and then calculated the averages. Of course, all my information comes from Whoscored.

My Results:
La Liga teams averaged the following
Rating of 6.66; Possession of 47.33%; Goals per Game of 1.2 and Shots per Game of 10.65

EPL teams averaged the following
Rating of 6.71; Possesion of 47.3%; Goals per Game of 1,11; and Shots per Game of 11.44

Now these results are very, very, very even. I could venture to guess these stats might be average in the mayority of leagues but it would take further investigation.
This is were my personal opinion comes in; I believe the bottom teams would be just as even as it shows on these stats. I do not believe more money = success. There is a lot that comes into play suchas tactics, injuries, individual players, etc. I am under the opinion that EPL players are mostly in it for the money and not for the sport, thats what money causes most of the time. I will however investigate further into an analisis of the teams style of play and how they would compare between leagues seeing as the strengths, weaknessess and style are shown for each of the teams in Whoscored. If anyone wants to start that go right ahead. I believe between thursday and friday I might have something more to add.

I'm going to be thorough in my analysis and try to be as objective as possible while basing it on facts or stats if possible. First of all, start of by looking at the domestic league. Look at the tables from the past 3 or so years and you'll see that the teams with a higher perceived value in general finish higher in the table. So if it's true for domestic leagues, why wouldn't it be in international cups? A possible reason would be that ALL Spanish teams simply collaborate better as a team, al though less individually talented players according to the perceived value. After all, it's the teams performance that matters right? But do we believe this? I'll start by looking at the CL for the seasons since La Liga according to the info-graphic above has performed better. Below are ALL matches between La Liga and EPL teams for the last 15 years.

16/17
Group stages
City-Barca 3-1
Barca-City 4-0

15/16
Group stages
Sevilla-City 1-3
City-Sevilla 2-1
Final stages
Real Madrid-City 1-0
City-Real Madrid 0-0
Arsenal-Barcelona 0-2
Barcelona-Arsenal 3-1

14/15
Group stages
Real Madrid-Liverpool 1-0
Liverpool-Real Madrid 0-3
Final stages
City-Barcelona 1-2
Barcelona-City 1-0

13/14
Group stages
Manchester United-Real Sociedad 1-0
Real Sociedad-Manchester United 0-0
Final stages
Atletico Madrid-Chelsea 0-0
Chelsea-Atletico Madrid 1-3
Manchester City-Barcelona 0-2
Barcelona-Manchester City 2-1

12/13
Group stages
Manchester City-Real Madrid 1-1
Real Madrid-City 3-2
Final stages
Real Madrid-Manchester United 1-1
Manchester United-Real Madrid 1-2

11/12
Group stages
Villarreal-City 0-3
City-Villareal 2-1
Valencia-Chelsea 1-1
Chelsea-Valencia 3-0
Final stages
Chelsea-Barcelona 1-0
Barcelona-Chelsea 2-2

10/11
Group stages
Manchester United-Valencia 1-1
Valencia-Manchester United 0-1
Final stages
Barcelona-Manchester United 3-1
Real Madrid-Spurs 4-0
Spurs-Real Madrid 0-1
Arsenal-Barcelona 2-1
Barcelona-Arsenal 3-1

09/10
Group stages
Atletico Madrid-Chelsea 2-2
Chelsea-Atletico Madrid 4-0
Final stages
Arsenal-Barcelona 2-2
Barcelona-Arsenal 4-0

08/09
Group stages
Villarreal-Manchester United 0-0
Liverpool-Atletico Madrid 1-1
Atletico madrid-Liverpool 1-1
Manchester United-Villarreal 0-0
Final stages
Barcelona-Manchester United 2-0
Barcelona-Chelsea 0-0
Chelsea-Barcelona 1-1
Villarreal-Arsenal 1-1
Arsenal-Villarreal 3-0
Real Madrid-Liverpool 0-1
Liverpool-Real Madrid 4-0

07/08
Group stages
Chelsea-Valencia 0-0
Sevilla-Arsenal 3-1
Valencia-Chelsea 1-2
Arsenal-Sevilla 3-0
Final stages
Barcelona-Manchester United 0-0
Manchester United-Barcelona 1-0

06/07
Group stages
Barcelona-Chelsea 2-2
Chelsea-Barcelona 1-0
Final stages
Chelsea-Valencia 1-1
Valencia-Chelsea 1-2
Barcelona-Liverpool 1-2
Liverpool-Barcelona 0-1

05/06
3rd Qualifying round
Everton-Villarreal 1-2
Villarreal-Everton 2-1
Group stages
Liverpool-Real Betis 0-0
Manchester United-Villarreal 0-0
Final stages
Barcelona-Arsenal 2-1
Arsenal-Villarreal 1-0
Villarreal-Arsenal 0-0
Real Madrid-Arsenal 0-1
Arsenal-Real Madrid 0-0
Chelsea-Barcelona 1-2
Barcelona-Chelsea 1-1

04/05
Group stages
Liverpool-Deportivo La Coruna 0-0
Deportivo La Coruna-Liverpool 0-1
Final stages
Barcelona-Chelsea 2-1
Chelsea-Barcelona 4-2

03/04
--

02/03
1st Group stage
Liverpool-Valencia 0-1
Valencia-Liverpool 2-0
2nd Group stage
Valencia-Arsenal 2-1
Deportivo La Coruna-Manchester United 2-0
Barcelona-Newcastle 3-1
Newcastle-Barcelona 0-2
Manchester United-Deportivo La Coruna 2-0
Arsenal-Valencia 0-0
Final stages
Real Madrid-Manchester United 3-1
Manchester United-Real Madrid 4-3
Chelsea-Real Betis 4-0
Villarreal-Manchester United 0-0
Real Betis-Liverpool 1-2

01/02
1st group stage
Arsenal-Mallorca 3-1
Manchester United-Deportivo 2-3
Deportivo-Manchester United 2-1
Mallorca-Arsenal 1-0
2nd Group stage
Barcelona-Liverpool 0-0
Arsenal-Deportivo 0-2
Deportivo-Arsenal 2-0
Liverpool-Barcelona 1-3
Final stages
Deportivo-Manchester United 0-2
Manchester United-Deportivo 3-2

00/01
1st Group stage
Barcelona-Leeds 4-0
Leeds-Barcelona 1-1
2nd Group stage
Manchester United-Valencia 1-1
Valencia-Manchester United 0-0
Leeds-Real Madrid 0-2
Real Madrid-Leeds 3-2
Final stages
Leeds-Valencia 0-0
Valencia-Leeds 3-0
Leeds-Deportivo 3-0
Deportivo-Leeds 2-0
Arsenal-valencia 2-1
Valencia-Arsenal 1-0

Since these are the only H2H stats that we can use. Doesn't really tell much about the bottom teams though amiright? what conclusions can we draw from this though? Well, first of all that La Liga has been dominant in the CL the last 5 years thanks to Real Madrid, Barcelona and Atletico Madrid. In fact we have to go 10 years back in time before any other Spanish team beat an english team in the CL. Secondly, that the perceived value for the teams seem to correlate with the winning frequency (at least in this example - which obviously isn't statistically proven). Seeing how high the frequency is of the top 2 teams in la Liga I think we can determine that it isn't an accurate way of comparing leagues with each other. There are 20 teams in a league, not 3, and again the comparison was between the teams at the bottom of the tables.

Now I put a lot of work into analyzing this. Therefore I ask of anyone that participate in this thread to contribute to the best of your abilities. Base your statements on something. Meet arguments with arguments. Then I'm sure this thread can be one of the better ones on FR.

@sun
You state that you can just as well say:

P1: EPL teams have a higher value than La Liga teams
P2: Evidence over the last decade shows that in head-to-head competition, La Liga wins more often
C1: Therefore, a higher value does not mean that the EPL teams are better

Well, No you cannot. @P2 First of all it's not the last decade as shown above. Assuming that the 3 La Liga teams that has won against EPL teams in the last 10 years in CL equals LA Liga is a faulty assumption. Furthermore, @C1 to further crush this argument, the LA Liga teams that have indeed won over the EPL teams in the last decade have in most cases had a higher perceived value. Both Barcelona and Real are miles above the EPL teams in terms of this and Atletico is on pair. And guess what? They're the teams that have won against the EPL teams.