So many statements thrown around. Everyone got an opinion. But what do we base them on? Tiki speaks with emotions, Sun is the PC principal in southpark, myself base it on subjective preferences. Others have entirely different definitions on how to make a comparison of let's say La Liga and EPL.

So hear me out. Bottom-up. That's the way everything should be govern, and the way we start this analysis.

The revenue in EPL for 2014-15 is 4070m euros in comparison to La Ligas 2053m euros. The average club income is £155m for EPL in comparison to £77.5m for La Liga. And we all know which teams generate and receive most of that money. Luckily enough at least the tv rights will change with a new legislation that was passed at the end of April which will come into play start from 2016 season where La Liga will sell its TV rights collectively for all clubs and the income will be shared equally between clubs. Unlike the current system where clubs sell their rights independently causing massive difference income of top 2 and the rest of the clubs in spanish top flight.

However, In comparison EPL are miles ahead in this game with over £5 billion just from domestic rights sale and premier league are expecting another £3 billion from oversees rights which means starting from 2016-17 season bottom premier league club will earn around £100 million in tv rights money and thats way more than champions of the top leagues around europe.

So, that's the money part. But we all know that EPL clubs pay way more than most other clubs for similar talents right? Okay. Let's check the VALUE of the clubs i.e. the collected perceived value of the clubs and not the transfer sums. Beginning from the bottom up (according to transfermarkt - the most reliable source for this measure).

See a pattern? Obviously excluding the odd ones. Because money does not explain everything (Chelsea last season - Valencia this..), but the pattern is clear as day. The richer the clubs are the better players they can attract. In fact EPL pays higher wages than La Liga and Serie A combined with a weekly average of £43,717 to La Liga's £23,327 a week.

That's only money you say? Nopp. It's value, incentives AND money.

Now, to an older thread I created (and didn't finish before the transfer deadline) about the netto transfers. Is EPL a team that buys players or sells players? And the same for La Liga etc. You be the judge.

EPL

Arsenal In: 37.5 Out: 0 Net: -37.5
Bournemouth: In: 27.5 Out: 17.9 Net: -9.6
Burnely: In: 2.5 Out: 0 Net: -2.5
Chelsea: In: 65 Out: 12 net: -53
Crystal Palace: In: 23 Out: 9 net: -14
Everton: In 7.2 Out: 48 Net: + 40.8
Hull: In 4.5 Out: 0 Net: -4.5
Leicester: In: 35.1 Out: 39.5 Net: +4.4
Liverpool: In: 63.9 Out: 36 Net: -27.9
United: In: 123.2 Out: 0 Net; -123.2
City: In: 118 Out: 4.1 Net: -113.9
Middlesbrough: In: 18.8 Out: 0 Net: -18.8
Southampton: In: 22.8 Out: 56.7 Net: +33.9
Stoke: In: 18 Out: 0 Net -18
Sunderland: In: 8 Out: 0.7 Net -7.3
Swansea: In 2 Out: 27.9 Net: + 25.9
Spurs: In 29.5 Out: 8 Net: -21.5
Watford: In: 16.2 Out: 8.5 Net: -7.7
West B: In: 6 Out: 0 Net: -6
West Ham: In: 22.4 Out: 10 Net: -12.4

Total Net:-372.8m pounds Total revenue: 929,4m pounds

1.17 conversion rate to euros. Total Net: -436.2m€ Total revenue: 1087,4m€

**La Liga***

Alaves: In 0.55 Out: 0 Net: -0.55
Atletico: In: 79.5 Out: 9 Net: -70.5
Bilbao In: 0 Out: 0 Net: 0
Barcelona: In: 83.3 Out: 13.6 Net: -69.7
Celta: In: 7 Out: 13.5 Net: +6.5
Deportivo: In: 5.6 Out: 0 Net: -5.6
Eibar: In: 3.1 Out: 5 Net: +1.9
Espanyol: In: 9 Out: 0 Net: -9
Granada: In: 0 Out: 25.2 Net: +25.2
Las Palmas: In: 1.8 Out: 0 Net: +1.8
Leganes: In: 1 Out: 0 Net: -1
Malaga: In: 10.3 Out: 0 Net: -10.3
Osasuna: In: 0 Out: 3.8 Net: -3.8
Real Madrid: In: 27 Out: 37.5 Net: +10.5
Real Sociedad: In: 10.7 Out: 9.6 Net: -1.1
Real Betis: In: 15 Out: 8 Net: -7
Sevilla: In: 47.5 Out: 71 Net: +22.5
Sporting: In: 0.6 Out: 0 Net: -0.6
Valencia: In: 10 Out: 41.5 Net: +31.5
Villareal: In: 42 Out: 12.3 Net: -29.7

Total net: -108.95m€ Total revenue: 603,95m€

Now please compare the transfers for teams at the bottom side of the table in EPL and La Liga.

So, for your statements to be true, La Liga must have endlessly better scouts, youth systems and academies given that their resources are not nearly as big as EPL's. And I don't think they are. However, I do believe that Spain produce much better domestically products because of a better football climate and because of the corrupt FA. EPL has 66.4% foreign players while La Liga has 41.6%. I hold it for true that EPL buy a lot of good Spanish players. That's not what this is about though.

Do you need any other proof that EPL bottom teams are better than La Ligas? Just look at a game between them and a top team in the league. Look how they week in and out beat the top teams. Look how none of the matches in EPL are certain in advance. Where you surprised that Pool got beat the other day? I certainly wasn't. And before you watch the game have a look on the odds given from the pundits. Any 1.06 odds in EPL? Nopp.

Sources:
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/
http://www.totalsportek.com/money/tottenham-player-salaries/
https://www.rt.com/sport/345182-premier-league-wages-report/
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/european-big-four-leagues-goals-3513388
https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/study-reveals-premier-league-highest-155522255.html

In my old thread I had factored the Euro league into my calculations, which is the reasoning behind my statement. Willing to look over all of this again though, some interesting conclusions could be drawn from this.

This never gets old..

Im going to have a more philosophical approach to this thread. I hope people dont think Im going crazy or biased.

If Barcelona loses to Osasuna, you can say Osasuna was better but you can't say Osasuna is a better team. So head to head is only a reasonable excuse when it has been repeated a few times.

We should not look into top La Liga teams, not even mid table teams and focus only on Bottom 5 or so for each league (past few seasons). Given that we have no head to head records between bottom teams we need to figure another way of comparing them. Revenue is not related at all with how good a team actually is. Neither is the amount of points they get by the end of the season or even results against top teams because it could be a very flawed statistic to look into.

With no exact science to evaluate this in my mind atm, a couple of factors we could look up into are:

• How often do reacently promoted teams stay in the league for the continuing season(s).
• How often do bottom 5 teams reach final stages in domestic cups.
• How many players from bottom teams are sold to top teams (bottom 5 to top 5).

These 3 factors would evaluate, consistency, personality, experience and overall quality of squad.

In my opinion, this would be the only approach in which one can truly determine if a few bunch or teams are better than another bunch of teams who have never faced each other.

If someone wants to make a Reverse Champions League (bottom 4 out of each top league) simulation in FIFA, that would be a nice experiment as well.

*** For most of this to work, the best sample to take would be the worst 5 teams from both leagues that have spent the past 5 seasons in the first division in terms of total pts.

This is the most sensible thread we have ever had on this subject. I'm so proud of everyone here. We have managed to avoid a fight. :')

Most of you though fell into a trap from those images though.

To be precise, The actual statistics that are worth watching are really few in terms of lower table teams. All those stats show that English lower table teams are better at least most of them.

Newcastle, Aston Villa are above Bilbao, Sevilla, Villareal. Those 2 Championship teams yes. With BPL having such competition it makes it even harder for lower table teams to even have 1 season at EL even, which according to what I see not even Stoke would focus on EL due to BPL giving more money by achieving a higher spot in the table.

In fewer words I don't know If I am correct 100% it was one of my first thoughts when I was chilling and reading those statistics.

Lets discuss? This thread is amazing

@Joze

Well, Villarreal were also a Segunda team a few seasons ago. On top of that, Newcastle were a beast in the 90's. Bilbao is unfairly judged because they only ever use players born in the Basque country. Yet they still managed to beat Sir Alex's squad twice. Bilbao is an oddity in all of Europe, I don't think they can properly be evaluated as a "Spanish" team. The only inexcusable one is Sevilla. They have simply not lived up to standards against English opposition in the EL/CL.

Find it amusing how people thumb up in this thread. Too many biased people that need little or no facts to back up their claims. Tuan disagreed with the "Do you need any other proof" part and that the Pool loss wasn't a surprise. I proved it wasn't a surprise with facts. No likes. I liked Suns logical thinking part, but disproved it by showing which teams had actually won and their correlating value. No likes. A perfect example of people closing their mind to something.

@sun That's fair but I really don't think EL should be used for comparison as EPL teams field remarkably weaker XI than in CL or domestically. As I've shown the revenue is twice as high in EPL as in La Liga, thus the little price money that comes with EL doesn't make it worth while for English teams. Heck, even the domestic FA Cup is on pair in terms of achievement for EPL teams. After all it fields around 750 teams. While La Liga has got one league cup, England has got two. But if you feel differently, feel free to show the numbers for EL too.

@tuan_jinn This debate will go nowhere you said? Ok.

@tuanis Good thoughts. However, I suspect there are people that don't agree with that. Tuan for one.

How often do reacently promoted teams stay in the league for the continuing season(s).
How often do bottom 5 teams reach final stages in domestic cups.
How many players from bottom teams are sold to top teams (bottom 5 to top 5).

As those are country specific. And when a team sell their best players they can no longer be utilized and thus aren't as good of a team.- Because apparently the money they'll get for that player that they can invest in new players isn't something we can take into consideration.

@ everyone: If you look at the value chart on top, and you then list the teams in each league after how good they are, will you see that perceived value somewhat correlates with that? Chelsea is on pair with City but better than Arsenal which is better than Liverpool which is better than Spurs which is better than Everton which is better than Southampton which is on pair with Leicester and so on. Now, if you do the same cross league. Barca and real are better than the EPL teams. Atletico on pair with City and Chelsea. Are Liverpool and Spurs better than Sevilla and Villarreal? Discuss.

Dont get cocky! I said it's going no where because there will never be sufficient data to support anyone opinion. Until they introduce a lower-table league competition across Europe.

@KTB

The reasoning behind including EL was that they were still head-to-head matches, but you are correct in saying that English teams sometimes field weaker squads. I'm not much of an expert in La Liga, so if Dynastian, Rain, or Tiki or someone could give me an estimate as to how weak the La Liga teams field their squads in the EL, I could make a generalized statement about the squad strength of both leagues. I might then be able to make an objective equation that factors the number of starters from the league to the EL.

It would likely look something like this:

Avg games started in league (for every position)
Avg games started in EL (for every position)
Take that value for both leagues, and if the EPL's league does not match EL, then find out average amount of league starters in an EL game, (say 7, and La Liga's is 10)
Calculate the points for the EL again, but weighing every EPL point as 0.3 heavier than La Liga point.

Does that seem fair or do I need a new formula? I might have made a mistake somewhere, but it's the only real objective way I can think of weighing the Euro League, because otherwise the weakened squad argument is used. I'd also like to know if it's good up front, because it's going to take a few hours of research.

@Dynastian98 I believe Bilbao is one my favorite teams, only good words and respect comes on mind for this team. Recently Bilbao though messed up their CL group though.

Athletic Bilbao Spain 0–0 Ukraine Shakhtar Donetsk
BATE Borisov Belarus 2–1 Spain Athletic Bilbao
Porto Portugal 2–1 Spain Athletic Bilbao
Shakhtar Donetsk Ukraine 0–1 Spain Athletic Bilbao
Athletic Bilbao Spain 2–0 Belarus BATE Borisov

I am starting to believe each year is different and each team focus on either staying in their league or risk it further by focusing on a cup or fight for a Europe spot in the table.

Something else I would like to say is that La Liga has benefits by focusing on EL on the other hand other BPL teams do they actually really have benefits if they focus on EL and not on BPL? I doubt it due to money rewards.

@JozeMourinho

Newcastle, Aston Villa are above Bilbao, Sevilla, Villareal. Those 2 Championship teams yes.

Aston Villa won the Champions League in it's history with Super Cup that season. Therefore it was a top team then. Not a fair comparision.
Considering the history of some "bottom teams", I think we should focus on the last 6 years, after 2009-2010 to make an equal comparision for this thread.

I understand KTBFFHSWE's and Tuanis' logic. Not saying I agree but I comprehend since there are no actual other ways to compare bottom teams so they use logical expressions to make a good point.

@KTBFFHSWE

Those financial statistics can be very useful to compare "second divisions" of each countries in my opinion. And it is pretty obvious that Championship has a higher quality than Segunda Division. But when it comes to the first divisions, those statistics can only be enough to make a point like I said in the other thread.

Chelsea is on pair with City but better than Arsenal which is better than Liverpool which is better than Spurs which is better than Everton which is better than Southampton which is on pair with Leicester and so on. Now, if you do the same cross league. Barca and real are better than the EPL teams. Atletico on pair with City and Chelsea. Are Liverpool and Spurs better than Sevilla and Villarreal? Discuss.

I thought this thread was about the bottom teams.

I really don't think EL should be used for comparison as EPL teams field remarkably weaker XI than in CL or domestically. As I've shown the revenue is twice as high in EPL as in La Liga, thus the little price money that comes with EL doesn't make it worth while for English teams.

Can we say the same statement for Southampton this year?I don't actually know their stronger or weaker squad since I don't watch them. Also I think ManU played with their A squad in Europa League this year. The main reason is obviously for that winning EL gets you a place in CL.

@SunFlash

give me an estimate as to how weak the La Liga teams field their squads in the EL

I think they usually play with their main squad.

@Sun, I believe any team other than English teams field the strongest possible XI for the EL. It may not be as prestigious as CL or rewarding (in terms of cash prizes) but its a competition, why wouldnt you want to win? Most teams do it for a small glory and you know fans love winning a cup. Any cup. The real problem is the mentality of teams. Klopp really did try to win EL because he came from Bundesliga and understand that cups are important (aside from the fact it gets you into the CL). I applaud Chelsea for being the only other team to take it seriously and actually win it.

@Emre_can58 I gave stats since the year 92'. I am aware of Aston Villa's past but right now it is unarguably a really below mid table team.

Although Fulham and Chelsea have progressed to the final since it replaced the Uefa Cup, clubs have generally considered it more of a burden than an opportunity.... The Premier League has discussed offering clubs a financial bonus for progressing to the later rounds of the Europa League as part of an attempt to prevent England losing one of its four Champions League spots.

Summary of this article in the Guardian

@sun EPL clubs field remarkably weaker teams than La Liga and most other leagues. While unnecessary, that formula is good if you want to check it up further, but I don't know how fair it'll still be, as I don't know how the english teams would do if they fielded stronger teams. But I'm afraid that will take more than just a few hours. And I'm guessing there are other sources to validate this.

@raimondo I agree with everything you say. EL is an important cup. UEFA has already tried to make it more prestigious by increasing the amount of teams and offering a CL spot. Now, the money part just need to increase to, and until that happens maybe the proposal from the FA Board will give incentives.

We have to remember that most football clubs nowadays are run as businesses with different interests and owners. Even clubs that aren't profitable on paper can lead to profits for the owners. This is in particular true to the Premier League that is mostly owned by foreign interests. While I for one think they should fight in every single cup people with business interests in the club might not share that opinion

And this thread is about the bottom teams, but since there is no way to compare them without using examples from teams that participate in EL or CL and draw conclusions from that.

Well, Southampton is out of Europa League. I don't know if they played with their main squad but not a good campaign they had.

@KTB

I don't like a "well we can't possibly ever know" conclusion. Once my curiosity is peaked, I'm pretty much stuck.

So I speak with emotions ? Well I'm not going to debate here basically any old member knows my point here. Wont make it long here I will just state RESULTS AND RECORDS what KTBFFHSWE call emotions...

• Barca ended up first of their group in CL for the 10th time in a row, players leaved and were signed, tactics changed, played without a coach, got internal issues, transfer banned, key injuries.... they finish first no matter wich team is in their group. Why ? It's a consistency Machine, you can beat them in a game, the more games you have to play the lower chance you can compete.
  A league is 38 games, Barca/Madrid made it impossible for competition and CL stats prove that it doesn't have any relationship with league or opponents.
• My friend today called me saying I'm betting on Southampton, i told him 2 things : Don't look how much they bought their players, look at how they play football and how Beer Sheeva play, they love direct football and shooting from long distance, okay when was the last time we saw an English player score a screamer outside PL, they won't leave them space and the 1,45 odd is risky buisness.
  He told me look at Beer Sheeva players value on the market, we playing monopoly here, cross in the box waiting for someone to cut need spaces, agaisnt an in form Atletico you will need 500 minutes to score
  One that way, its outdated.
• Best teams in England atm play new tactics 3-4-3 4-3-3 with balance and automatism, bottom teams are inconsistent and outdated tactically, the Undefeated Spurs in PL lost twice to average players Monaco in CL, inexperience? Tactics ? Bad luck ? Style of play ? Everyone has his answer I guess mine is between all these....
• Spanish bottom teams lack depth, otherwise they could beat English bottom teams consistently.... Bailly as an example costed 40mil, he was never a high tier defender in Spain so till the day PL keeps overpaying player playing that kind of style of Football, any modest budget in Europe will give them a fight as long as they have tactical awareness.
• City fields B team and fail to win vs Celtics, Barca fields B team and trash Glad'bach.

I just love having some PL fans here who are more objective atm, i think 3 years ago your point Ktbffhswe would have been popular with Lodatz and co, atm and since big 4 show a little evolution on the field ( not on the bank ) a gap of level is beginning to settle, doesnt meet its less competitive. It's just a correlation of points won by top tier teams and lost by bottom ones...

Longer than I expected...

Last year Chelsea odd vs Bournemouth home : 1,80 this year odd 1,20. Doesnt mean Chelsea had doubled for times their value, they just play better on the pitch and show guarantees of success. Barca vs Bournemouth last season would have been 1,06. Barca bs ossasuna 1,17 last year it would have been 1,05 or less.
Even when a big four faces Barca at Camp Nou its less than 1,50 does it mean they are shit teams ? No it only means that the chances of Barca winning are better. Talking about odds is useless because in CL City VS Celtic odds is approximate to what bookies give a bottom PL team : 1,3. Barca vs Celtics this season is approximately what bookies give to a liga bottom team 1,15-1,20. Its the same Celtics right ? So you understand that if City faces Ossasuna home the odd would be between 1,3 and 1,4, and if Barca meets Bournemouth the would be between 1,10 and 1,20. Clear enough ?

For EL about fielding A teams, Liga teams start doing it in final stages and depending on schedules, most of the teams uses rotations even in la Liga. But the difference is that no matter who is fielded, he is asked to perform.

Some performences of teams like Everton last year and the trashing 5-1 against Kiev is just inexcusable. You pay players to perform, going far may start a dynamic or hopes of CL, Klopp was too close to earn a CL ticket last season, it also created a dynamic we can see this season from Liverpool, looking know as a family on and outside the pitch wich is vital for long term results. I understand more Pochetino last year who wanted to secure top 4 because he could,but in a healthy squad, bench players should be knocking doors and perform while given chance. But can we say Spurs fielded a B-team in CL ? No it's deeper than we just don't want to play EL because there is no money in it. Where is the passion ? Is that the message you send to players ? Then i understand why they have no issue being inconsistent and having a night life and playing selfish " its only buisness better get my part of the cake " Yaya Toure :)
While at Sevilla, in the Sanchez Pijuan marked " common champions " and supported like WC champions, that will give wings to any player and force him to stay focus not only in EL. I don't buy that at all, or then fans in England are just cows for a milk factory.

they're all shite.