Suarez diving... yet again.

I dont even know what to say, I believe he is one of the best strikers in the world but this is one of the reason he is probably my most hated player ever.

Annnnd, this is why the problem continues.

See, the issue with using this bit of footage from Shearer and Lineker, is that it's merely discussing one single incident. To quibble about this one penalty, and conclude that the ref had no choice to give it is one thing, but it does not exactly make up for vast number of 'proper dives' that the very same player.

Pretending that it does, is just making another excuse for it, and thus it will continue to blight our game.

Exhibit B is you, tiki, describing a moment of disgrace as your 'best WC memory'. You're celebrating cheating.

And yet you simultaneously lament the fact that it plays such a large part in football??

Also?

"When Maradona cheated in World cup, everybody said the hand of God"

No, MARADONA said that. And he only said that long after the game, because at the time he told the ref he had used his head. Do you really think he'd have gotten away with it if he'd told the truth to the ref? No, he cheated, he lied, and then when the media, armed with video footage of this, grilled him for it, he came up with some crapola about how it was the "hand of God steering us to victory". No-one celebrated that goal, at all. They DID celebrate the one afterward, where he dribbled through the entire England team, but that's different.

Again, this whole double standard you claim exists? It doesn't exist. It's just an excuse, and not a very good one. If you simply 'accept it as part of the game', then it will BE part of the game. If you don't accept it? It won't.

That's the difference. If you defend diving, then you like having cheating in your game. And no, you don't get to act as though you have an equal moral perspective on the game, because, frankly, you don't.

When I played football, when I was younger, our coaches taught us the value of fair play.

What's amusing, too, is that both Alan Hansen and Shearer slammed Suarez for not shaking Evra's hand, even when it was clear that Evra was messing him about.

<http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/17000395>

So, which was it? Was Shearer wrong this time, or last time, about Suarez? Take your pick.

Wrongly accusing Suarez of diving, in this particular case, also won't solve the issue of cheating. Besides, Suarez hasn't dived in a long ass time.

I think you have to take each incident of suspected "cheating" and analyze them separately.

Moment of Disgrace? Idk, maybe, but it was so heroic, wasn't it?

I don't think people accept cheating, I think they accept the fact that a player is physically able to cheat if he decides to, simply because there's nothing anybody can do about that. People just hope that they don't, just like I hope someone doesn't kill me in the street even though I know it's possible that they could if they wanted to. I mean, with the 2010 WC moment, what could anybody have done to prevent Suarez from deciding to become goal keeper?

It's only a game, and so the consequences can only be so harsh.

While I agree with you that Evra was probably messing him about, I don't think there was anything "clear" in that whole shitt drama.

For once I admire your perseverance Lodatz, for the first time you made me think twice about what I said. Still think Shearer and company are right about the Villa game and wrong, to an extent, about the handshake.

@Gustavo: I agree with a lot of that, for example this:

"I think you have to take each incident of suspected "cheating" and analyze them separately."

I entirely agree with you on that. I have my obvious distaste for diving, but I also have a distaste for unfair narratives, and I have great respect for players who decide to clean it up and leave it in the past, because that shows character, in my eyes. And if, as you say, Suarez has packed it in and not dived for a long time, then I'll be among the first to applaud that.

But, let's be fair: his reputation wasn't unfairly earned. Biting, accusations of racism, diving, play-acting, handballing, spiteful stamps, etc etc. There's only so far benefit of the doubt can be stretched, you know?

If you want me take back my words about his diving this time, then sure. I take it back, because I agree that there was a little contact and the ref didn't have much choice. I'll buy the argument that going down easily isn't the same as diving, in this instance. Fair penalty.

But this, I can't go for:

"Moment of Disgrace? Idk, maybe, but it was so heroic, wasn't it?"

Was it? Denying your opponents the honourable victory they deserved, deliberately choosing to cheat rather than win fairly, is heroic? Do you really believe that?

I think that heroism and honour go hand in hand, and that one without the other doesn't really exist. I don't believe you'd deny that sentiment.

"I mean, with the 2010 WC moment, what could anybody have done to prevent Suarez from deciding to become goal keeper? [...] It's only a game, and so the consequences can only be so harsh."

I agree with that too, which is why I try not to blame referees for getting it wrong, unless there's some serious fishiness about it (I could name an instance, but I don't want to pick another fight with tiki-taka about it). I don't buy the 'blame the police' argument, in that respect, which is why I always argue for greater penalties and less excuses for the players themselves.

This isn't a working-class game any longer, as someone else mentioned when talking about the fact that these guys are millionaires. But, one result of the amount of money and coverage that the sport gets now, is the enormous amount of footage and money which is pumped into the TV production. Dozens of cameras, instant replays, HD-quality zooming, goal-line technology... these are all things that we have, which we didn't used to have.

So, why not use it? Why NOT punish a player, retroactively, if he proves to have conned the ref? That doesn't fall prey to rash spur-of-the-moment decisions, like a call on the pitch can. Why NOT examine the instant replay footage, when deciding upon red cards or dives that are in doubt? I reckon that fewer people would go flopping around the pitch if an instant replay, available to the 4th official, leads to the ref giving them a yellow instead of the other player a red. I also reckon that it'd get stamped out pretty quickly, too, if a panel after the game found an obvious dive and issued 4-match bans, etc.

Why? Because players who spend half the season ineligible for play because they cheat too much are not a sound investment for any squad or club to bother with. Coaches (and/or) fans would stamp that out REALLY quickly, or else turf the loser out somewhere else. They'd either learn to clean it up, or else look for another career.

After all, football IS a sport, and sports have rules. If we want this sport to remain an honest, and honourable one, we should cheer on any effort to keep the sport WITHIN the rules. If we allows diving/cheating to be 'part of the game', then it will be, and it will be less beautiful.

"But, let's be fair: his reputation wasn't unfairly earned. Biting, accusations of racism, diving, play-acting, handballing, spiteful stamps, etc etc. There's only so far benefit of the doubt can be stretched, you know?"

Right. And I think it's because of the english people's unwillingness to accept this type of behavior that has shaped and is shaping Suarez into a more fair player. I would like to see retroactive punishments, but I would like to see retroactive punishment done right. If, for example, we retroactively punished an innocent player then retroactive punishments would doing more harm than good, IMO. If the punishments get too severe I fear players, even if guilty, will start to contest accusations to the point where football turns into a bureaucracy shitt storm.

"I think that heroism and honour go hand in hand, and that one without the other doesn't really exist. I don't believe you'd deny that sentiment."

I don't, not at all. But I do think there are a ton of people (especially people from Uruguay, because of the bias Tiki mentioned) who would call Suarez loyal for his willing to break the rules for his people and thus... call him honorable.

" Why? Because players who spend half the season ineligible for play because they cheat too much are not a sound investment for any squad or club to bother with. Coaches (and/or) fans would stamp that out REALLY quickly, or else turf the loser out somewhere else. They'd either learn to clean it up, or else look for another career."

I agree. We'd only "fire" a player if he/she broke the laws of the government, not the game, but I don't think there's anything we could do to change that.

@Gustavo:

"If the punishments get too severe I fear players, even if guilty, will start to contest accusations to the point where football turns into a bureaucracy shitt storm."

• I agree that's a risk, and have no desire to see that. I feel confident, though, that were a serious proposal to be made to head in this direction, that people who are very good at planning policy would find a way to diminish that risk. I don't expect to hash out a serious manifesto for the FA or UEFA on an internet forum, certainly, but serious people with serious experience could manage to do a good job of it, I'd wager.

"But I do think there are a ton of people (especially people from Uruguay, because of the bias Tiki mentioned) who would call Suarez loyal for his willing to break the rules for his people and thus... call him honorable."

• And those people and I will never see eye-to-eye on that matter. How can breaking the rules involve honour, unless the rules are unfairly written against you? Fighting for one's people is not the same thing as cheating at a sport. I wonder if Uruguayan fans would have felt the same way about it had it been a Ghana player doing it, to deny Uruguay the winner. I can say that I would condemn the Ghana player just as much as Suarez.

Can they say they'd consider that player a hero? Would they have said: "oh, well, I guess that's just part of the game. Kudos to that guy for being willing to cheat in order to win. Gosh, I wish we had a player who was so dedicated..."

I doubt it. And if they did? I'd say they have serious issues with their priorities, with regard to football.

@Lodatz I didnt celebrated, i said i found it funny the way he was walking near the ref...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/paulfletcher/2010/07/luis_suarez_hero_or_villain.html

Thats what i wanted to told you, in Uruguay he was celebrated as a hero. And thats why he will do the same next time.

@tiki:

"I didnt celebrated, i said i found it funny the way he was walking near the ref..."

Oh, then I misunderstood. My bad.

"That's what i wanted to told you, in Uruguay he was celebrated as a hero. And that's why he will do the same next time."

Precisement. Because that's what happens when it's treated as okay, both at international and at club level. :/

Totally agreed with Man Utd. from that angle, its very difficult for him to see the dive.

@COYSPURS2008 What dive?