I have never rated pep... Polls

Dynastian98 8 years ago

Real Madrid 483 7140

@Lodatz

None of this is of course trying to say that Barcelona were NOT amazing and worthy of all their accolades

Amazing, undoubtedly, but worthy of all their accolades? I generally don't like to count blatant cheating and match-fixing when measuring a team's accolades. 2009 and 2011 Champions League victories were undeserved.

I'm going to get trashed by some B.S. arguments that will date back to the 1950's now and the Di Stefano transfer and Franco are going to be brought up.... so let me just end by this. Our '98, '00, '02, '14, and '16 titles were won without any form of cheating or scandal. They were just victories. Our teams did not attempt to cheat the referee in order to win games, which, unfortunately, we can't say about Barcelona throughout the 2009 and 2011 semi-finals.

Lodatz 8 years ago

Tottenham Hotspur, England 150 4992

@Dyn:

I generally don't like to count blatant cheating and match-fixing when measuring a team's accolades.

I generally agree with you to be honest, and that's a reason I stopped worshiping them. I was just trying to say that I'm not trying to tarnish Barcelona with this analysis. They're still Barcelona, and the quality of the football is undeniable.

SunFlash 8 years ago

USA 19 3260

None of this is of course trying to say that Barcelona were NOT amazing and worthy of all their accolades, but the idea that no-one figured out an answer to tiki-taka until Bayern Munich is just false. Chelsea and Mourinho had been showing Europe the way for years before either Bayern or Simeone figured it out.

My train of thought basically sees that while Mourinho did a great job of defeating tiki-taka, until Simeone, no one could replicate how he did it. I recall very clearly United's attempts, and a bit less clearly the attempts of others all taken from that Mourinho blueprint, and until 2014, they all failed. Knowing how to beat a system and actually beating it are two very different things, and regrettably United is the prime example of why in this scenario.

I completely agree that that tiki-taka was figured out before Pep left, remember he wasn't even managing Barca for that Bayern tie. Where I disagree is that it was dissected enough to be beaten consistently and no longer "the best" out of the potential tactics. Tiki-taka ruled Spain until 2013 when Pep left, and then he murdered the Bundesliga with it. If it wasn't for him going full retard in semi-finals, it's quite possible he would've made a few more UCL finals.

What we're seeing now in England is City being beaten very consistently by teams that are simply exposing tiki-taka the way Mourinho did - something that the world largely couldn't do before 2014. While much of City's problems can be attributed to Bravo having one of the worst save percentages in history (20% beneath every other GK in the Prem atm) much of that is City just getting rekt at their own game. That's something that only happened to Pep's Barca once, and his Bayern when he decided to be to cute with European giants.

Dynastian98 8 years ago

Real Madrid 483 7140

My train of thought basically sees that while Mourinho did a great job of defeating tiki-taka, until Simeone, no one could replicate how he did it.

Ehh, Bilbao were pretty good at stopping Barcelona from time to time. It didn't always work out, but they did use the Mourinho blueprint. High energy, high pressing, physical football. Sociedad is another team that perform well against Barcelona (funny how both the Basque teams manage to perform well against them). You're just referring to 'big' teams that beat them. There were numerous top-clubs in Spain who were able to fight the tiki-taka system well.

SunFlash 8 years ago

USA 19 3260

I'll accept your knowledge on La Liga over mine. Aside from Clasico's, I didn't watch any La Liga back then. I just knew that Barca pretty much ran the table.

Lodatz 8 years ago Edited

Tottenham Hotspur, England 150 4992

Where I disagree is that it was dissected enough to be beaten consistently and no longer "the best" out of the potential tactics.

That's fair, but I don't think anyone said that. I was just pointing out that when you said that the world couldn't come up with an answer for 4-5 years, that in fact it did, and the answer that was found was developed earlier than people think, by teams and a league that don't get enough credit for doing so. ;)

Tiki-taka ruled Spain until 2013 when Pep left, and then he murdered the Bundesliga with it

True, but Spain isn't the world (and certainly before Atletico's rise, there was no question over which league was harder), and the German league was already dominated by the team he inherited.

What we're seeing now in England is City being beaten very consistently by teams that are simply exposing tiki-taka the way Mourinho did - something that the world largely couldn't do before 2014.

Well now, hang on a second there. When you say 'the world' in this case, you're again talking about La Liga, not the other leagues. The way people are playing against City these days is not new; at least, not in England. We've been doing it since before Mourinho arrived -- remember how he complained about the parked bus?

What we are seeing now in England is Pep trying to beat the English league with tiki-taka, whereas before now he had only individual games to win against big teams (which he could prepare for), and the prestige of a CL tie to play for to motivate the players. Winning a cup tie against a team and dominating the league are two different things, and there is every reason for us to assume just as easily that this would have happened the first time around, too (and indeed, is precisely what PL fans said would happen if any of the 'super-teams' had to try and play week-in, week-out in England, where it's tougher to win).

I just don't get why, when you have the canvas of history to study, your takeaway is: "oh, well, Bayern figured out how to beat tiki-taka, so now all the top teams are doing it", instead of: "hmmm, I guess it's harder to beat teams with tiki-taka when the whole league already knows how, since we've been doing it for ages...".

much of that is City just getting rekt at their own game.

I don't agree. How much percentage did Everton, Chelsea, Tottenham, Leicester, Liverpool etc have, when they beat City? What about Middlesborough, Southampton (and Everton and Tottenham again) when they drew? The pattern is the same: City dominated the possession and shots every time, and yet other teams walked away with the points. They're not beating City at their own game, they're just beating City because it's not a mystery how to do so. It's still a challenge to do so, but the basic blueprint was developed years ago.

And it's also the case that playing against tiki-taka isn't how teams play every week. When Atletico play Barcelona, they usually have about 33% possession -- par for the course. Last year, they had 27% possession(!) in the Allianz Arena, facing 33 shots (!), but won the tie nonetheless, thanks to similar numbers in the first leg at home. But the week after, when they play Eibar or Espanyol, Simeone will have his team dominating possession instead. Same with Chelsea in 2009 and 2012; just because they played a certain way against Barcelona doesn't mean that's all they can do -- against most teams they were the ones dominating the ball.

It's just that when a team can ONLY do the tiki-taka style, then you switch tactics to defeat that.

In other words, Pep needs to adapt. It looks like he is, too, since he's started having his players try more and more Long Balls to score. Maybe he's starting to learn from the PL, in return...

Showing previous versions of this text.

2017-01-26 19:00:20

Where I disagree is that it was dissected enough to be beaten consistently and no longer "the best" out of the potential tactics.

That's fair, but I don't think anyone said that. I was just pointing out that when you said that the world couldn't come up with an answer for 4-5 years, that in fact it did, and the answer that was found was developed earlier than people think, by teams and a league that doesn't get enough credit for doing so. ;)

Tiki-taka ruled Spain until 2013 when Pep left, and then he murdered the Bundesliga with it

True, but Spain isn't the world, neither is Germany, and certainly before Atletico's rise, there was no question over which league had the toughest challenge.

What we're seeing now in England is City being beaten very consistently by teams that are simply exposing tiki-taka the way Mourinho did - something that the world largely couldn't do before 2014.

Well now, hang on a second there. When you say 'the world' in this case, you're again talking about La Liga, not the other leagues. The way people are playing against City these days is not new; at least, not in England. We've been doing it since before Mourinho arrived -- remember how he complained about the parked bus?

What we are seeing now in England is Pep trying to beat the English league with tiki-taka, whereas before now he had only individual games (which he could prepare for) and the prestige of a CL tie to play for to motivate the players. Winning a cup tie against a team and dominating the league are two different things, and there is every reason for us to assume just as easily that this would have happened the first time around, too (and indeed, is precisely what PL fans said would happen).

I just don't get why, when you have the canvas of history to study, your takeaway is: "oh, well, Bayern figured out how to beat tiki-taka, so now everyone is doing it", instead of: "hmmm, I guess it's harder to beat teams with tiki-taka when the whole league already knows how, since we did it first".

much of that is City just getting rekt at their own game.

I don't agree. How much percentage did Everton, Chelsea, Tottenham, Liverpool etc have, when they beat City? City dominated the possession and shots every time, and yet other teams walked away with the points. They're not beating City at their own game, they're just beating City because it's not a mystery how to do so. It's still a challenge to do so, but the basic blueprint was developed years ago.

And it's also the case that playing against tiki-taka isn't how teams play every week. When Atletico play Barcelona, they usually have about 33% possession -- par for the course. They still manage to beat them, and the next week, when they play Eibar or Espanyol, Simeone will have his team dominating possession instead. Same with Chelsea in 2009 and 2012; just because they played a certain way against Barcelona doesn't mean that's all they can do -- against most teams they were the ones dominating the ball.

It's just that when a team can ONLY do the tiki-taka style, then you switch tactics to defeat that.

In other words, Pep needs to adapt. It looks like he is, too, since he's started having his players try more and more Long Balls to score. Maybe he's starting to learn from the PL, in return...

2017-01-26 19:00:20

Where I disagree is that it was dissected enough to be beaten consistently and no longer "the best" out of the potential tactics.

That's fair, but I don't think anyone said that. I was just pointing out that when you said that the world couldn't come up with an answer for 4-5 years, that in fact it did, and the answer that was found was developed earlier than people think, by teams and a league that don't get enough credit for doing so. ;)

Tiki-taka ruled Spain until 2013 when Pep left, and then he murdered the Bundesliga with it

True, but Spain isn't the world, neither is Germany, and certainly before Atletico's rise, there was no question over which league had the toughest challenge.

What we're seeing now in England is City being beaten very consistently by teams that are simply exposing tiki-taka the way Mourinho did - something that the world largely couldn't do before 2014.

Well now, hang on a second there. When you say 'the world' in this case, you're again talking about La Liga, not the other leagues. The way people are playing against City these days is not new; at least, not in England. We've been doing it since before Mourinho arrived -- remember how he complained about the parked bus?

What we are seeing now in England is Pep trying to beat the English league with tiki-taka, whereas before now he had only individual games (which he could prepare for) and the prestige of a CL tie to play for to motivate the players. Winning a cup tie against a team and dominating the league are two different things, and there is every reason for us to assume just as easily that this would have happened the first time around, too (and indeed, is precisely what PL fans said would happen).

I just don't get why, when you have the canvas of history to study, your takeaway is: "oh, well, Bayern figured out how to beat tiki-taka, so now everyone is doing it", instead of: "hmmm, I guess it's harder to beat teams with tiki-taka when the whole league already knows how, since we did it first".

much of that is City just getting rekt at their own game.

I don't agree. How much percentage did Everton, Chelsea, Tottenham, Liverpool etc have, when they beat City? City dominated the possession and shots every time, and yet other teams walked away with the points. They're not beating City at their own game, they're just beating City because it's not a mystery how to do so. It's still a challenge to do so, but the basic blueprint was developed years ago.

And it's also the case that playing against tiki-taka isn't how teams play every week. When Atletico play Barcelona, they usually have about 33% possession -- par for the course. They still manage to beat them, and the next week, when they play Eibar or Espanyol, Simeone will have his team dominating possession instead. Same with Chelsea in 2009 and 2012; just because they played a certain way against Barcelona doesn't mean that's all they can do -- against most teams they were the ones dominating the ball.

It's just that when a team can ONLY do the tiki-taka style, then you switch tactics to defeat that.

In other words, Pep needs to adapt. It looks like he is, too, since he's started having his players try more and more Long Balls to score. Maybe he's starting to learn from the PL, in return...

2017-01-26 19:00:20

Where I disagree is that it was dissected enough to be beaten consistently and no longer "the best" out of the potential tactics.

That's fair, but I don't think anyone said that. I was just pointing out that when you said that the world couldn't come up with an answer for 4-5 years, that in fact it did, and the answer that was found was developed earlier than people think, by teams and a league that don't get enough credit for doing so. ;)

Tiki-taka ruled Spain until 2013 when Pep left, and then he murdered the Bundesliga with it

True, but Spain isn't the world (and certainly before Atletico's rise, there was no question over which league was harder), and the German league was already dominated by the team he inherited.

What we're seeing now in England is City being beaten very consistently by teams that are simply exposing tiki-taka the way Mourinho did - something that the world largely couldn't do before 2014.

Well now, hang on a second there. When you say 'the world' in this case, you're again talking about La Liga, not the other leagues. The way people are playing against City these days is not new; at least, not in England. We've been doing it since before Mourinho arrived -- remember how he complained about the parked bus?

What we are seeing now in England is Pep trying to beat the English league with tiki-taka, whereas before now he had only individual games (which he could prepare for) and the prestige of a CL tie to play for to motivate the players. Winning a cup tie against a team and dominating the league are two different things, and there is every reason for us to assume just as easily that this would have happened the first time around, too (and indeed, is precisely what PL fans said would happen).

I just don't get why, when you have the canvas of history to study, your takeaway is: "oh, well, Bayern figured out how to beat tiki-taka, so now everyone is doing it", instead of: "hmmm, I guess it's harder to beat teams with tiki-taka when the whole league already knows how, since we did it first".

much of that is City just getting rekt at their own game.

I don't agree. How much percentage did Everton, Chelsea, Tottenham, Liverpool etc have, when they beat City? City dominated the possession and shots every time, and yet other teams walked away with the points. They're not beating City at their own game, they're just beating City because it's not a mystery how to do so. It's still a challenge to do so, but the basic blueprint was developed years ago.

And it's also the case that playing against tiki-taka isn't how teams play every week. When Atletico play Barcelona, they usually have about 33% possession -- par for the course. They still manage to beat them, and the next week, when they play Eibar or Espanyol, Simeone will have his team dominating possession instead. Same with Chelsea in 2009 and 2012; just because they played a certain way against Barcelona doesn't mean that's all they can do -- against most teams they were the ones dominating the ball.

It's just that when a team can ONLY do the tiki-taka style, then you switch tactics to defeat that.

In other words, Pep needs to adapt. It looks like he is, too, since he's started having his players try more and more Long Balls to score. Maybe he's starting to learn from the PL, in return...

2017-01-26 19:00:20

Where I disagree is that it was dissected enough to be beaten consistently and no longer "the best" out of the potential tactics.

That's fair, but I don't think anyone said that. I was just pointing out that when you said that the world couldn't come up with an answer for 4-5 years, that in fact it did, and the answer that was found was developed earlier than people think, by teams and a league that don't get enough credit for doing so. ;)

Tiki-taka ruled Spain until 2013 when Pep left, and then he murdered the Bundesliga with it

True, but Spain isn't the world (and certainly before Atletico's rise, there was no question over which league was harder), and the German league was already dominated by the team he inherited.

What we're seeing now in England is City being beaten very consistently by teams that are simply exposing tiki-taka the way Mourinho did - something that the world largely couldn't do before 2014.

Well now, hang on a second there. When you say 'the world' in this case, you're again talking about La Liga, not the other leagues. The way people are playing against City these days is not new; at least, not in England. We've been doing it since before Mourinho arrived -- remember how he complained about the parked bus?

What we are seeing now in England is Pep trying to beat the English league with tiki-taka, whereas before now he had only individual games (which he could prepare for) and the prestige of a CL tie to play for to motivate the players. Winning a cup tie against a team and dominating the league are two different things, and there is every reason for us to assume just as easily that this would have happened the first time around, too (and indeed, is precisely what PL fans said would happen if any of the 'super-teams' had to try and play week-in, week-out in England, where it's tougher to win).

I just don't get why, when you have the canvas of history to study, your takeaway is: "oh, well, Bayern figured out how to beat tiki-taka, so now everyone is doing it", instead of: "hmmm, I guess it's harder to beat teams with tiki-taka when the whole league already knows how, since we did it first".

much of that is City just getting rekt at their own game.

I don't agree. How much percentage did Everton, Chelsea, Tottenham, Liverpool etc have, when they beat City? City dominated the possession and shots every time, and yet other teams walked away with the points. They're not beating City at their own game, they're just beating City because it's not a mystery how to do so. It's still a challenge to do so, but the basic blueprint was developed years ago.

And it's also the case that playing against tiki-taka isn't how teams play every week. When Atletico play Barcelona, they usually have about 33% possession -- par for the course. They still manage to beat them, and the next week, when they play Eibar or Espanyol, Simeone will have his team dominating possession instead. Same with Chelsea in 2009 and 2012; just because they played a certain way against Barcelona doesn't mean that's all they can do -- against most teams they were the ones dominating the ball.

It's just that when a team can ONLY do the tiki-taka style, then you switch tactics to defeat that.

In other words, Pep needs to adapt. It looks like he is, too, since he's started having his players try more and more Long Balls to score. Maybe he's starting to learn from the PL, in return...

Lodatz 8 years ago

Tottenham Hotspur, England 150 4992

I should mention, of course, that the English league learned most of this from playing (and losing to) Italian clubs in the 90s.

ashwin1729 8 years ago

Manchester United, England 10 705

I think my argument opened a pandora's box in taking this discussion from Pep to Barcelona as a team.

@Amer: I guess so..

@Dynast: If my memory serves right I remember Osasuna or Getafe were also beating them on a consistent basis...probably because of players being rested...

Tiki-taka ruled Spain until 2013 when Pep left, and then he murdered the Bundesliga with it. If it wasn't for him going full retard in semi-finals, it's quite possible he would've made a few more UCL finals.

Destroying German league isn't that big of an accomplishment considering the team he had. This Bayern team is probably the best in the team's history, better than their 70's team.

EPL is the real deal, and this will either make him or break him. Judging from the history of English press and the managers...it doesn't really bode well for Pep...

Dynastian98 8 years ago

Real Madrid 483 7140

@Ashwin

Yeah, but Barca also slapped Osasuna and Getafe by 6, 7, 8 goals a number of times.... so it's kind of lop-sided in Barca's favor. At least that's how I remember it.

ashwin1729 8 years ago

Manchester United, England 10 705

@Dynast: I know.. :P That's why I said only when Barcelona rotated players. Also, those wins that these teams scraped were at home, and Barcelona were in mood for other competitions...but man, at Camp Nou those lop sided victories showed the disparity between the two teams...

Marcus2011 8 years ago Edited

Chelsea FC, England 277 6501

I always thought he is overrated even during his Barcelona spell . He just caught the wind off la Masia academy products at the right time.

He will be done next year if not this year . EPL is not just different type of football and traditions , but it is also completely different type of environment for manager . Media , fans , Epl schedule and on top bloody weather creates difficult environment to work in . I just don't see Pep to last here more than two seasons ..

Showing previous versions of this text.

2017-01-29 15:35:15

I always thought he is overrated even during his Barcelona spell . He just caught the wind off la Masia academy products at the right time.

tuan_jinn 7 years ago

Manchester United, Netherlands 198 6912

Just a bit banter for xmas. Hehehe. Dig this up would be fun :D

Btw, Pep team plays the way I expect his team plays... Great football. Hate to say this but the adapt to EPL difficulty seems to be a hoax, adaption yes but not that difficult it seems. He is a great coach with style

Golazo111 7 years ago

Chelsea, Mexico 70 2607

So I voted not overrated but not based on what he is doing now. He showed what he can do in Barcelona, after that he wasn't able to come close to that bar that is very high and everything now is just expected more or less.

Marcus2011 7 years ago

Chelsea FC, England 277 6501

@tuan

If that money wasn't spend, I bet he would have been gone. He literally spent amounts of size of Galactico project of Florenz

raimondo90 7 years ago

Valencia, Argentina 89 2492

@Marcus, the sum is indeed big. But you are comparing sums between two different periods of time. Spending 200mil today is not the same as spending 200mil 10 years ago, hell even 4 years ago.

tuan_jinn 7 years ago Edited

Manchester United, Netherlands 198 6912

uhmnn

exactly as @raimondo said, even Neymar's release clause alone is bigger than his spend. I mean, you can't just compare the amount these day and back then

He doesnt really have any big name to his team, not some crazy transfers. His crazy one is actually Danilo who everyone laughed at cuz he sucked at RM...

Showing previous versions of this text.

2017-12-18 21:24:37

uhmnn

exactly as @raimondo said, even Neymar's release clause alone is bigger than his spend.

He doesnt really have any big name to his team, not some crazy transfers. His crazy one is actually Danilo who everyone laughed at cuz he sucked at RM...

Emobot7 7 years ago

543 11477

When Mou buyed Lukaku and Matic and when Conte buyed Morata and Bakayoko, no one said a thing but when Pep buy Walker and Mendy, everyone lose their mind. :U

raimondo90 7 years ago

Valencia, Argentina 89 2492

@Emo, correct term is bought. But yes, everyone takes digs at the leaders to demerit the work they put in.

Golazo111 7 years ago

Chelsea, Mexico 70 2607

Pep outspent both Mourinho and Conte by almost double the money last transfer window, Mourinho sold Lukaku only to buy him later on thats funny as well...

tiki_taka 7 years ago

Barcelona, France 367 9768

Mendy barely played a game and Bernardo Silva is sitting on the bench, only Walker is making it into first squad.
For me people are sometime being blinded by hate, as simple as that...

Outspent this, out spent that, didnt won this or that, seriously are these arguments ??