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@knibis: I agree that Barcelona are the best team in the world; you'll never have to argue that with me. However, the same just can't be said of Real. Just because Real are Barca's rival in La Liga doesn't mean they make the rest of the world tremble; Bayern dealt with them, and Chelsea dealt with Bayern.
It's not that Real are crap; they're just not in the category of Bayern, Man U and Barca, who along with Chelsea have been the boys scrapping it out for the last 4 or 5 finals.
Real haven't been at the table.
@DonAndres: It may be that we'll see the top performance level of Real, and it may be that it's better than Man Utd's. If so, I think it has to do with what I just said to knibis; Real have been Barca's La Liga rival, and because of how hard that is, they've suffered in the CL. This season, if the league is considered lost, they might make the CL their priority, and they may pull out something special, it's true.
I do indeed catch you, I just think that Man Utd will be tougher than anything they've faced this year, aside from Barca, and that going by form, Man U have to surely be the favorites.
@Don: Well to be fair, you guys would have been clear winners if it wasn't for the stupid mistake made by Valdez...
You think the EPL having 5 teams compete for 2 places is tough? How about La Liga which currently has:
4th- Malaga 36 points
5th- Real Betis 35 points
6th- Valencia 34 points
7th- Rayo 34 points
8th- Real Sociedad 33 points
9th- Levante 33 points
Now any of these teams can excange positions every week because of how tight it is. Realisticly i dont expect Levante Rayo or Sociedad to qualify but it sure as hell can happen. Malaga Valencia and Betis have a tough competition ahead to see who can get that spot. I believe thats ten times more challenging and interesting.
@raimondo: And I believe most of the clubs you've listed could be beat by Liverpool or Everton :/. Hell, Swansea can beat some of the teams listed there. Other than that, that is a really heated mid-table/top four race!
@ven thats not the point at all. And actually i dont see liverpool nor everton topping malaga or valencia.
lol dont listen to Vendetta raimondo. he speaks of what he do not know...
^POT, KETTLE, BLACK
@raiimondo: That does sound exciting, yes. It's getting more competitive over there, for sure. However, I don't know if I'd be too confident about how they'd stand up if we had cross-play between the leagues... ;)
Thankfully, though, this thread isn't about comparing the two leagues. :)
I thought the Article's overall point is correct:
#1- From a strictly football quality perspective the PL is NOT the best league in the world ATM. It may have been for the best part of the past decade or so but the only people who would argue that currently are those who are too biased to see the forest from the trees.
#2- The PL is still as exciting, if not more exciting, than it ever was the gap in quality between the top and bottom of the table has decreased. The top 3 in the past went into games with an automatic assumption of defeating the bottom-placed minnows. In fact, the minnows themselves would should that they thought so as well and would do all they could to simply limit the damage and maybe nick a draw. This fear factor has all but disappeared. For one, the top 3 teams are just not as strong & awe-inspiring but more importantly the midtable & bottom placed teams have gotten better and are confident enough to have a go at their favoured rivals. I like this.
I do disagree with some minor points:
#1- I think it's a bit of an exaggeration to say it's "not a very good league". It's just not THE BEST in terms of technical ability and quality atm.
#2- I'm not sure if the author is a Chelsea fan but I seriously disagree with his portrayal of Benitez as some sort of inept idiot of a manger. I personally think he is a very good manager and there are other mitigating circumstances that certainly haven't helped Chelsea to perform as well as they would've liked. Most people who aren't angry Chelsea fans would argue that he is in fact an excellent manager in the wrong job at the wrong time. Lastly, Chelsea do have the best squad of the 5 teams fighting for 3rd & 4th place. As such, they are in the position that they should be in the table.
#3- If anything, I would argue that City has a poor manager and that his poor decisions, inappropriate tactics, and bad selections have cost them dearly. I honestly think there are a good number of managers given the same resources that Mancini had would've done far better. Maybe then we would have a real title race and SAF wouldn't be so comfortable. I don't know if it's because he's Italian or the City fans are just grateful for winning something after all these years but the man is grossly overrated. I've said this before and I'll say it again - City won the title in spite of Mancini last year, not because of him.
#4- As for the remaining 4 teams, I have to say I really think it should be done to Spurs vs. Arsenal again. I think they are the best of the rest and as much as I'd like Everton to prove me wrong I just don't know if they have th squad to push all the way. Liverpool plays wonderful football but again the author is correct in pointing out their severe reliance on 2 key players. I have a hard time separating Arsenal from Spurs. As a 25-man squad I think Tottenham edge it. That is to say, I believe they have better quality depth. On the other hand I believe that Arsenal has better individual players and on paper they REALLY shouldn't be where they are. Those failings IMO are entirely down to the manager and his maddening refusal to address obvious longstanding issues. I hate to say this, but I think with another manager, this exact same squad should be fighting with Chelsea or even maybe city for 3rd/2nd.
@Footaholic: I really don't see this decline in talent and technical ability that you're talking about. Again, I think it's just being spread around a lot more, which is why the league looks 'weaker'. I have to admit, the majority of people I've heard say that it's weaker tend to be Liverpool and Arsenal supporters. Read into that what you will, but I think that there's a lot of bias from that direction too -- two traditional powerhouses have declined, and it's easy to think that shows an overall trend.
But where two or three have declined, two or three have risen, too.
Take Man City. If it were not for Man City, then Nasri, Clichy and Adebayor would still be at Arsenal. If not for Spurs rising, Arsenal would also have gotten Vertonghen and Holtby, and I very much doubt we'd have seen RVP, Fabregas and Song depart. Who knows who else they could have been in contention for, such as Hazard?
But, because there have been more teams on the block (almost double), all that talent that in yesteryear would have gone to Chelsea, Arsenal and Man Utd exclusively, are now plying their trade at the Lane, the Ethiad, and even St James Park. Newcastle have had a shocking season, but I bet you by the time September comes around they will look like welcome contenders for the CL slots again.
There is no way the Tottenham of a couple of seasons ago could beat this current Spurs team. They're so much more composed, experienced and confident now, filled with talent in every department (except for a world-class striker). Remember when Parker would get injured, and we'd have to bring on Palacios or Chimbonda?
The same is true of Everton, and Newcastle. They've steadily improved, as Arsenal have sold their best talents and Chelsea's have steadily retired from the top-flight. I agree with you about Man City having been poorly managed, but that still dilutes the talent pool.
Like you've said, the gap between top and bottom has been reduced. Why then, since the rest of the league has gotten better, and stopped being ruled by the top 3, do you say that the league has weakened?
If anything, it's because even teams like Swansea and West Brom have discovered that they too can play one-touch football, play the ball out from back, and keep possession, if they really try. They've learned from our top teams, and how to frustrate them, the same way that Man Utd and Chelsea learned from Barca. Aside from the gloss of Iniesta and Messi's feet, half the time when you watch Man U it's like watching Barcelona, when you analyze their play.
The PL is changing, and certainly an era is over. But when we look at the standard of football that most of the league is playing at (teams like Stoke aside), I think the overall level of technique, patience and intelligence has gone up, not down.
Again, it's mainly those who feel the pain of their own decline the most, whose bias is declaring that everyone else is on the slide too.
Sorry to double-post, but I think I have a good way of explaining it:
Remember that FIFA World XI that came out, that nearly everyone agreed was heavily flawed? Well, if it's not necessarily the best XI people could come up with for the world, it's certainly the best XI from La Liga. Let's refresh our memories:
Casillas
Alves -- Ramos -- Pique -- Marcelo
Xavi -- Alonso -- Iniesta
Messi -- Falcao -- Ronaldo
Hard to argue with that, even if there's some tinkering one might do here and there. And, of course, aside from Falcao, they're all at Barcelona or Real Madrid. That's a hell of a side, no doubt. Certainly Messi, Ronaldo and Iniesta are incomparable -- the best 3 players in the world, in my eyes.
But, it's not exactly like we have a bunch of slouches in the PL, either, you know. ;)
I mean, if we were to make a PL XI, for forwards we have the likes of Bale, Suarez, RVP, Aguero and Rooney to choose from. In midfield? Well, attacking-wise we have Mata, Silva, Hazard, Nasri, Ben Arfa and Fellaini. Defensive midfielders to boast about are names such as Sandro (who before injury was one of the most impressive DMs in Europe), Toure and Arteta...
And when we get to defense, there's a huge upgrade in the form of Kompany, Vidic, Zabaletta, Vertonghen, Evra, Cole, etc, every one of which puts the back four from the FIFA XI to shame. Goalkeepers? Well, while it's hard to find anyone to compare with Casillas, I fancy Cech, Hart, Lloris and Howard would do a pretty good job. ;)
So where's this dearth of talent? I would put an XI selected from those names against the FIFA World XI, and expect one hell of a close match. There's tons of talent in the PL at the moment, man. We've got some real beasts in there, and most importantly, we have world-class talent in every department, whereas I think even that FIFA XI really only has the world's best attack; certainly not as good a defense as could be mustered from other leagues.
Again, it's just that our talent is spread about in about 6 or 7 clubs, instead of massed in just 2 or 3, as it used to be.
@Vendetta
Real are shit compared to Man United? Doubt it :/. A lazy Madrid side that only tried in the first 45 minutes managed to thump 5 past Valencia at the Mestaya, so I don't think that they'll find too much trouble scoring about 2 goals at Old Trafford (but that's only if Madrid are in form). With Casillas out, I'll fancy that RVP and Rooney (with his recent goal run) will fancy much more shots on target than usual, and that Lopez (despite being world class) may not be able to keep out all of them. But the trick for Madrid is to keep a clean sheet at the Bernabeu. If they do that, they can use the full force of their counter-attacking to shatter Man United's rather slow center backs at Old Trafford. Remember, Madrid at their best had the best away record last season in all of the big 5 leagues.
@Lodatz: I think you analysis has no bearing on my points. The fact that Arsenal & Liverpool have regressed has little bearing on my analysis of the league as a whole. Just as the gradual improvement of Spurs & City have no bearing. My overall point is that from the perspective of 1)technical ability 2)tactical awareness & 3) depth of quality the PL is the not the best in the world. You are assuming that means it has dropped in quality which is not what I said. My point is that other leagues have surpassed it.
Case in Point: Just look at the last "el clasico". Most will agree that it probably won't live too long in memory and wasn't the best match we've seen recently but just look at the quality of football. It blows any match I've watched from the PL this year out of the water. The movement, accuracy, passing, spacial awareness, and touch is simply unmatched. ManU are the best PL team atm and while their forwards are absolutely amazing to watch their overall play is not to that level.
But let's not limit it to the top 2. I've watched quite a few Malaga, Atletico Madrid games this year as well and the quality on display is absolutely breathtaking. These 2 teams IMO are better than the Arsenal, Spurs, Everton, Liverpool, and Chelsea atm. There is depth all throughout the league and don't let the fact that the BIG 2 always run away with it blind you to that fact. There is a reason that average Liga players have come to the prem and become "AMAZING". The talent pool there is the best in the world atm. Germany is progressing but still has a lot of ground to cover in the interum.
What I will say that has in fact DROPPED is one of the PL's traditional strong points - defending.
I would wager that vast majority of people who have kept up with the PL this year will admit that the defending has been far less impressive that in previous years. This in fact has been said verbatim by players from all spectra of teams, media pundits, and fans alike. If you don't agree that is your prerogative. However, just look at the amount of individual errors that you see in every match, even in the top sides. It's like every team has been reading from Arsenal's defensive notebook. Even Stoke, who in my mind are the best defense in the league, have been shipping in goals left to right for the past 6 weeks.
I am aware that we have been piss poor for a good amount of this season and in years past, as the author correctly points out, the top 4 would be absolutely beyond us. The fact that we are still only 5 points away from 3rd tells you all you need to know about the quality of the competition.
In the end though, I think my arguments stand whether I was a fan of Arsenal, United, or Wigan. My points are born from watching matches between all the teams not just Arsenal matches. My words are not inteded as a scathing critique of the PL or praise of any other league but rather an honest appraisal of where football is atm.
Oh, and no offense Lodatz but I had to did a double-take when you wrote this: "Aside from the gloss of Iniesta and Messi's feet, half the time when you watch Man U it's like watching Barcelona, when you analyze their play."
Again, United have been fantastic but I have no idea what you've been analyzing. Their style of play is NOT the same as Barca's and even if it were (which it is not) it is not near to the same quality and execution. I've never watched United this year and thought "wow they play like Barca!" I've only watched United and thought: "God-damn their attack is unstoppable" or "same old United Houdini escaping in the last minute with a result when they're not playing well" or "what a counter attack and wing play"!
@Footaholic: and I respect that, however I still disagree with your assessment, especially of the Clasico.
See, here's the thing about El Clasico: fantastic attacking, piss-poor defending. That's why so many chances go rattling into the back of the net; Casillas doesn't have that good a defense in front of him, and Barcelona are let down by Valdes. Honestly, a lot of the time when I'm watching Real or Barcelona rip through a team, especially each other, I'm face-palming at the number of errors they are exploiting. I really hope you're not watching BEIN Sport for your coverage of Malaga and Atletic Madrid, because let me tell you: the commentators are bullshitting you as to how good what you're watching is. What you call breathtaking, I call average. :p
You can say that the standard of defending in the PL has gone down, but I heartily disagree with you. Stoke are not a good example to use, in any sense, because they don't really defend so much as they stand in the way, and break up play with fouls.
Contrast this with the defensive excellence of Man City, or the superb close-control among Swansea's back four as they play their way out from their own penalty area. Spurs have a very good defense also, although this sometimes gets forgotten because their full-backs spend so much time bombing up the wings. Everton's defense is solid as a rock, most weeks, and the lower-table teams all have worked hard to get their bus organized and ready to park.
Aside from Arsenal and United, the defenses have been fairly solid.
As for stars coming from La Liga to play here and doing well? Well, there are three things to be said about that: 1) there have been as many flops as there have been successes, 2) maybe someone like Mata flourishes because he has a great team around him? and 3) when Ronaldo and Messi are taking turns breaking goal-scoring records upon the defenses of La Liga, it's hard to convince me that the standard they are playing against is terribly high.
Also, let's not forget why many of those stars are over here in the first place; their clubs cannot afford to keep them, and there's nothing huge for them to win unless they go to Madrid, Barcelona, or England. When the summer comes around, and Man City decide they really want someone like, I dunno, Isco... do you really imagine they won't get him? That his club are going to hold out? Please.
When you can make a starting XI from Premier League every bit as good as that of La Liga (and MILES better than one which rules out Barca/Real players), and better than that of the Bundesliga, it's a hard sell to tell me that we've been 'surpassed' in terms of technical ability and talent.
I watch other leagues too, and I'm telling you, some of the best midfield play in the world, some of the most intelligent passing, some of the best finishing, most of the best defending, and nearly every week the pick of the week's goals are found in the PL.
Over the next couple of seasons, when the new power hierarchy sorts itself out from the chaos of this 6-way scrap, we're going to see some truly beast teams emerge again.
And then everyone will wonder why the hell anyone doubted which league is the best. ;)
@Footaholic: "Again, United have been fantastic but I have no idea what you've been analyzing. Their style of play is NOT the same as Barca's"
Then you haven't been watching Man Utd.
Scholes and Carrick have been running that midfield every bit as cleverly and as skilfully as Busquets and Xavi. The one-touch passing between Kagawa, Cleverly, Welbeck, Rooney, RVP and Nani has been superb, and sliced through defenses every bit as efficiently as Iniesta and Fabregas could muster. Ferdinand, Evra, Rafael and De Gea have been cool, calm and inch-perfect with much of their play as they keep possession and move the ball back through the midfield to build toward another patient play. When they lose the ball, you can all but see the famous Barca 6-second rules running through their heads as they chase the ball down.
There's no comparison to Messi and Iniesta with the ball at their feet, of course, but in every other regard, SAF has been watching, learning, and putting into practice as much tiki-taka as you'll see at the Camp Nou.
There's a reason why Man Utd have been so prolific in front of goal, and it's not just because they bought RVP. The entire team is playing as a single, fluid, cohesive unit, and employ many of the same tactics as Guardiola introduced at Barca.
Don't get blinded by the fact that Barcelona are the best team in the world. They're not alone at what they do, and it's not confined to their league, either. ;)
I guess we watch see different things. I think the defending has been atrocious across the baord this year. Everton is probably an exception to that. Spurs's back 4 haven't been the most convincing to me (although they are far from poor) likewise with Liverpool (who were excellent last year if you recall) Arsenal (par for course) City (has NOT been defending nearly as well as last season) United (last 2 matches have been better) and then most of the mid and lower table teams: Fulham, Wigan, Villa, Soton, Newcastle, etc. I'll give you Swansea have been excellent all throughout their midfield and defensive shape (big credit to Laudrup).
As for comparing United & Barca playing style... I don't know where to begin. Barca maybe the best team in the world but that is not what I was saying was different. For me they have a fundamentally different set-up because they also have different type of personnel. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Be interesting to hear a United fans analysis on their playing style.
I do agree that Spurs back 4 have been shakier than they should have been, but we also had two of our starters our with injury, and I think they've been bombing forward too much, letting us get caught on the counter. When we're the ones having to defend against sustained build-up, though, very little has made it through.
As for City: I don't know what else to say dude other than the fact that City have conceded the least number of goals (21), and have the highest number of clean sheets (11, 44% of their games). That's pretty outstanding, to me, and even Barca have let in more goals than they have.
United have only conceded 3 goals in their last 6 games, and have kept 3 clean sheets, just to show recent form (don't forget they had no Vidic most of the season).
I guess we just don't agree on what good defending is?
What's so different about the personnel/set-up at Barca, from that of United?
I think there are a lot of parallels, actually. It's true that no-one can quite do what Messi, Iniesta and Fabregas can do, but if we went through each position I think you'd be surprised by how similar their players in those positions are.
We can, of course, agree to disagree if you wish.
@Lodatz, i respect your opinion but no one can claim Manchester United and Barcelona play the same. United have a fast paced attack focusing on the wings and the very common quick counter. Barcelona do play on the wings but most of their play is done through the middle focusing on Messi. Sure United started passing more but it does not compare to Barca's passing game. Swansea try to emulate it and still not the same, same goes for Arsenal. No team, and i really stress NO TEAM, can follow in Barca's footsteps in terms of preforming the same style. Barcelona have spent 10 or more years developing and it wont be copied after a few season.
On individual level of course Barcelona out classes United on almost every position except a few. But then again what do you expect when Barcelona of recent years has been hailed as the worlds best team ever.
The Barclays Premier League, the Best League In The World™, is not a very good league. It has no truly elite team, and look like a very solid bet to have no participants in the quarterfinals of the UEFA Champions League. Somehow, this might not be a bad thing for entertainment purposes.
Five teams are fighting for two spots in the top four, and none of them are good. Chelsea have a horrible manager, Tottenham Hotspur don't have a real center forward, Arsenal are slightly above average at everything without being great at anything, Liverpool have very little depth and Everton have even less depth. Four of these teams are out of Champions League, or were never there in the first place. The remaining side, Arsenal, are heavy underdogs against Bayern Munich.
Each one of these teams is very deeply flawed, and in most seasons of the Premier League, would seriously struggle to secure a fourth-place finish. This season, one of them has to finish third and two of them have to end the season in Champions League places.
Thanks to the weird state of the bottom-half, where all 10 teams in the lower part of the table could conceivably get relegated, the average points-per-match that these teams end on might indicate that they're partaking in one of the toughest top-four battles ever, but it simply isn't the case. The league's lack of true duds or powerhouses has the Champions League race looking like battle between five extremely deserving sides, rather than a race to see who can fall flat on their faces the slowest. Arsenal and Tottenham have both gone backwards, while Liverpool and Everton have progressed slightly and Chelsea have stagnated. The Arsenal and Tottenham teams from last season could beat the new versions of their themselves, along with the three teams Spurs and Arsenal are in competition with this season.
Of the five sides, Chelsea clearly has the strongest squad. Juan Mata is probably the best attacking player in the league, Petr Cech the best goalkeeper, and their stable of central defenders stronger and deeper than anyone else's. Demba Ba was a brilliant signing, and the magnitude to which he is an upgrade over Fernando Torres is outrageous. Frank Lampard, who scored a ridiculous goal against Newcastle, still has a lot left in the tank. Sure, they could use a great passer in the center, but there's nothing particularly wrong with the Blues' squad.
There is, however, a problem with their manager, a man who has squandered his reputation spectacularly. Once regarded as a world class tactician, Benitez ran Liverpool into the ground in the 2009-10 season, inflicting a wound from which they have yet to fully recover. He did the same to Inter Milan in 2010, and he's working on doing the same to Chelsea in the 2012-13 season. His team selections are asinine, his substitutions are more asinine, and a May feature in the Daily Mail about how the players never respected or wanted to play for Rafa in the first place is basically inevitable at this point.
On Saturday, his midfield got steamrolled by Newcastle and John Terry -- though he's an upgrade over Branislav Ivanovic at central defense -- looked a bit like the aging player he is. They were horrible all match and only close to a draw at any point because of two individually brilliant strikes by Lampard and Mata. Otherwise, a team of exceptionally talented footballers looked clueless and was overrun by a group of mid-table Ligue 1 players who appeared to have some idea of what their manager wanted them to do, while also giving a shit about what he thought of them.
Tottenham and Arsenal both won over the weekend, though in less than impressive circumstances. Spurs were bailed out by a second-half red card, handed to West Bromwich Albion's Goran Popov for spitting at an opponent. Without a creative passer from deep or a real center forward, they needed Gareth Bale to bail them out with a wonder strike. Arsenal failed to break down Stoke City at home, which is par for the course, and squeaked out a similar 1-0 win thanks to a deflected free kick.
Once again, Everton were entirely dependent on Marouane Fellaini to secure a result during this round of fixtures. They conceded three times against Aston Villa, the team in the worst form in the Premier League, with the most goals against and the worst goal differential. They needed their superstar all-around behemoth to steal a draw for them from two goals down, because they didn't have any other way to beat Aston Villa.
On the back of their two draws against top six teams over the last two weeks, Liverpool are a new addition to this list of teams in Champions League contention. A fully-fit Martin Skrtel and a broken-in Coutinho will surely make them legitimate top four, if not top three contenders, given their performances over the last two weeks while Stewart Downing and Jamie Carragher were in their lineup. Downing and Carragher are not only relics from a previous era of Liverpool FC, but relics from a previous era of football, period. The once brilliant Carragher gets by merely on his high-level Old Man Game, while Downing is anything but the dynamic wide player suited for Brendan Rodgers' fluid system that Coutinho is.
A healthy Liverpool, with the added bonus of Coutinho's talents, should make 'Eighthpool' jokes as dated as Carragher's glory days, but beneath Liverpool's very entertaining and likable first-choice starting XI is the cast of characters that guided them to eighth place, followed by a horrible bottom-half start to this year's campaign. Luis Suarez and Lucas are genuinely world class while Daniel Agger isn't terribly far off it, but the loss of any of those three players would be devastating. Without all of them in the team, Liverpool don't stand much of a chance to hang in the race for Champions League spots. With them in the team, they're capable of beating anyone.
There's a lot to like about everyone here, but just as much to despise. None of these teams would qualify as "good teams" in the Premier League's late-2000s glory days, but two of them will have to represent England in next year's Champions League.
While these five deeply flawed teams scare the living daylights out of their fans and worry neutrals that the Premier League is quickly losing its status as Best League In The World™, they're going to provide some truly fantastic entertainment between now and May as they play out the most unpredictable race for Champions League spots in the Premier League era.
If you're a neutral, sit back and enjoy the ride. If you're a fan of any of these five clubs, continue cringing every time your team drops points in an inexplicable fashion, then celebrate when your rivals do exactly the same mere hours later.