I don't really know much about this but apparently Messi abused the linesman and has been banned for 4 games. That would mean that Messi is virtually out of the World Cup Qualifiers. Think this is too harsh since FIFA usually does 4 match bans in cases of violence. And this being told the players and team hours before their match is a bit slow on FIFA's part.

Yea guys like Ayala, Sorin, Javier Zanetti, Samuel...you can't pass them twice without taking a hit. Basically the old school toughness that Argentina had that coach Diego Simeone built Atletico Madrid off.

@Sunflash exactly that's why we were statistically best defense in Europe for years with the line up you know, poor Pique, a cdm playing as a Cb And many stupid defensive line ups.
Do you think we have the best defense in the world ? Statistically yes. But on paper it's laughable to think it.

Uhhhh....

I don't know what metric you're using so I looked a few and couldn't find a single one where Barca had the best defense in Spain, let alone Europe. You're pretty much always top 5 in Spain, so that's chill, but Atleti, Sevilla, and Villareal (who actually have an amazing GA the last few years wtf) pretty much always do better. In comparison with other top teams in Europe, (e.g. Bayern, Juve, Chelsea, etc) you guys suuuuuck.

Ffs, even United has had a better defensive record this season. What statistics are you basing this on?

Argentina is a well rounded team, their offense just looks too good that the mid and D look very average. I believe the issue is just psychological, nothing more than that. How would you feel if you know that Lio Messi is playing on your side? Makes things much simpler. That kind of impact is only made by big time players, just their presence changes the entire dynamic of the the game even if they do nothing at all. It builds the teams confidence.

@SunFlash I believe he's looking at it based on the amount of wins, which has nothing to do with defense.

@SunFlash

Ffs, even United has had a better defensive record this season. What statistics are you basing this on?

Claiming facts that don't exist.... It's complete nonsense, as you can see already. Nothing out of the usual. Barcelona haven't had a decent defensive line since Puyol got his career destroyed by di Maria.

Each year Barca is first or second defense in Spain and statistically past decade, best defense in Europe statistically not over one season...

But why taking my point into only one sentence ? Don't you want to argue about the main point rather than looking for a loophole ? I always have this sensation when you cherry pick one line or two out of a post...

Do you agree with the rest then ?

Puyol was 35 that moment, and if one dribble would destroy a player than RIP whole Madrid defenders specially Ramos who is Messi's thing each Clasico before being Ronaldinho's...

Do researches guys before making a statement false, Barca conceded least chances, shots on goal, and one of the best in conceding less goals in Europe ( prove me wrong ), and it's not du to Pique-Bartra combination...

None is arguing about my main point, don't you agree ? Or you don't know what the word impact means ?

You're showing data from 2012-13 to prove how good Barca's defense is... the same season where you got hammered 4-0 and 3-0 by Bayern. Nice. There's loopholes all over your argument.

Go and look for stats yourself And prove me wrong then...
You are a youtouber, take one dribble of Di Maria on aging Puyol and make a statement, Im not doing so...
Im not home and from my phone I give what I found, now to destroy an argument, you should give something more consistent than remember " Di Maria dribble " ?

its fine here is a 2012/13 find another year and Barca played most of the season without coach...

just to reind you, there is no year Madrid conceded less than Barça in the league, so we can make it clear...

Now how about discussing the main point of my argument instead of looking for loopholes ? its just making me think you have nothing against my whole point...

When your best goal scorer decides to drop deep in midlefield and organize the attack, that says a lot about midlefield strenght and the versatility of the player we are talking about...

HE DISAPPEARED VS BELGIUM ????? DISCUSS.

I like how fact and example are given beside just claim and talking. Nice work Tiki.

Look at that vid against belgium, i feel ashamed of myself for just joining the crowd and simply say Messi disappeared (my own experience). Because I didnt have a gut to say otherwise.

@ tiki very well said, people only look at goals but don't see how many chances messi creates for the headless chickens like aguero or higuain, argentina only look good on paper and only messi performs up to his standards.

Messi does so much for argentina on and off the pitch and gets nothing in return, the argentinta federation is a joke.

To be honest, Puyol foot slipped. Even if he didn't, it still doesn't take away anything from his status.

Thanks guys you had the guts to approve what looks obvious for me, something complicated knowing the reputation people try to give me ( meaningless for me doesn't mean I'm an angel ). There is nothing harmful disagreeing with à same club fan let alone a rival fan, we're not fighting eaither...

@madridista not a simple dribble, nor a game, nor a competition, not even a bad season could take credit from a player with such a huge career. Maradona lost in final WC vs Germany with a disastrous game full of whining and completely useless, then went to next one prepared like a champion and got banned for using drugs while everyone knew he was cocaine addict since his Napoli spell, his anti FIFA Blatter discussions got punished the most cruel way denying him his last WC try as a competitor ( men justice ). Doesnt take anything from what he was on the pitch or what he achieved...
Puyol Palmares speaks of himself and no defender escaped from a breaking legs by a WC dribbler, Boateng or Dante got their image tarnished for a dribble/game because it buzzed, Doesnt take anything from the fact they made it to Bayern XI or repsenting their big football nations...

Shouting with the crowd may confort people on their beliefs being in number to think the same or getting likes ( Some like golazo like themselves ) but it doesn't change what happened or how it happened, not shouting with the crowd can be at times a mark of character, so if you do not feel ok doing it, do not unless it's justified.

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Maradona had à harsh words on Messi after the WC final, He wanted him to singlehandedly take revenge from what have been one of his biggest deceptions in career life, but Germany were as organized as In 1990 and individuals if not helped can do nothing, starting an action and finishing it is impossible in these circumstances.

Maradona annonced international retirement after this and got denied his last WC for a ban, History strangely repeating itself...

People will tell their children the watched Messi play in a decade or two, let them talk now.

Oh boy, we're doing this.

Each year Barca is first or second defense in Spain and statistically past decade, best defense in Europe statistically not over one season...
But why taking my point into only one sentence ? Don't you want to argue about the main point rather than looking for a loophole ? I always have this sensation when you cherry pick one line or two out of a post...
Do you agree with the rest then

I thought your whole point about having an elite forward making the defense better is complete bull, but was trying to be nice so isolated a single point. I can point to numerous situations where international teams have a top-5 forward and an otherwise average squad who concede lots of goals. Sweden, Brazil, Poland, Wales, Cameroon back in Eto's prime are all examples off the top of my head - but the reality is that while forwards can occasionally create chances on their own, about 80-90% of the game the ball is being fought for by the midfielders and attacking defenders. Keep in mind that I am a defender, so I tend to look at the game through that lens, but I don't see how a world-class forward who makes super cool runs and has good finishing helps when he's fifty yards away from the ball and his team doesn't have possession.

But since this is something I'd have a hard time proving because I couldn't really base in quantitative data, which is the only thing that really works on this forum because good reasoning is impossible here - I decided to not go after initially and let you have your fantasy.

So onto Barcelona's defense.

I'm going to be real with you, I don't watch a ton of La Liga Barca games. I watch the clasico, and I watch most of their Champions League fixtures. So aside from highlights (which usually show only the worst of the defense) that is my base of knowledge for Barca in league play.

In 2016/17, Barca is third in La Liga in GA, behind Atleti and Villareal.
In 2015/16, Barca was second in La Liga in GA, behind Atleti
In 2014/15 Barca was first
In 2013/14, Barca was second in La Liga, behind Atleti
In 2012/13, Barca was second in La Liga behind Atleti
In 2011/12, Barca was first
In 2010/11, Barca was first
In 2009/10, Barca was first
In 2008/09, Barca was first
In 2007/08, Barca was third, behind Villareal and Racing Santander

That's a lot better than I expected - I initially only looked back to 2013 and wasn't super impressed. There is a very obvious improvement in the defense when Pep's tiki-taka arrived, and a similar drop-off when he left. I am a little hesitant to give full props to Pep's defense, as I suspect that the high Barca possession levels had something to do with this improvement as opposed to the defense itself, based on my experience with LVG's possession style (United had the best defense in the EPL last season - while finishing 5th, fuck me). Nevertheless, props must be given.

So that's La Liga, now for what I'm more familiar with, the Champions League.

In 2016/17, Barca is giving up 1.1 goals a game. Teams who have better include: Juventus (0.25), Sevilla (0.75), Lyon (0.5), Leicester (0.8), Copenhagen (0.3) you know what screw this I'm only through two groups and it's already messed up, let's just accept PSG ruined Barca's GA in this year and move on.

In 2015/16, Barca gave up 0.8 goals a game. Teams who had better include: Chelsea (0.7), Atleti (0.5), PSG (0.6), Real (0.4).
In 2014/15, Barca gave up 0.78 goals a game. Teams who had better include: Chelsea (0.75), Bayer (0.6), Monaco (0.5), Real (0.75), Juventus (0.7), Atleti (0.4).
In 2013/14 Barca gave up 0.8 goals per game. Teams who had better include: Atleti (0.7), Real (0.71).
In 2012/13 Barca gave up 1.4 goals a game (this is because of the 7-0 to Bayern, and it resulted in Barca being nowhere near the top, so I'm not going to bother for this season).
In 2011/12 Barca gave up 0.83 goals a game. Teams who had better include: Real (0.75), Trabzonspor (0.83), Bayern (0.78).
In 2010/11 Barca gave up 0.64 goals a game. Teams who had better include: Real (0.5), Marseille (0.625).
In 2009/10 Barca gave up 0.83 goals a game. Teams who had better include: Inter (0.64), Lyon (0.83), Bordeaux (0.6).
In 2008/09 Barca gave up 0.92 goals a game. Teams who had better include: Juventus (0.75), Arsenal (0.916), United (0.57), Atleti (0.75).
In 2007/08 Barca gave up 0.6 goals a game. Teams who had better include: United (0.42), Chelsea (0.57).

You were unlucky to catch me on a Saturday, I literally have nothing better to do. As we can see here, Barca have a pretty decent record. In recent years, Atleti has the best by far, Real nearly always does better than Barca (wtf), and the old-school English teams used to lay down the hammer. Additionally, Bayern would nearly always have great GA and then get rekt by like 7 goals or something in the semis. Feels bad. They weren't the only ones, dozens of teams had great group stages only to give up anywhere from 5-9 goals a tie in the later rounds.

This kind of makes sense, the longer you last in the tournament, the better teams you play against. And Barca was one of those teams, consistently dropping 5+ goals on people, but they'd always give up a bunch in return. Two notable exceptions to this were 09/10 Inter and United's 07/08 and 08/09 sides, who both got BETTER defensively as the rounds went on. I thought I'd highlight this because the inverse was universally true for everyone else.

After looking at these numbers, we can see the same strengthing and then drop-off of the defense in the Pep years that we saw in La Liga. Again, I would attribute much of this to his style of play, but a good GA is still a good GA, so I can't talk too much crap. Barca's defense is better than I thought it was over the last decade. But.

@Sunflash exactly that's why we were statistically best defense in Europe for years with the line up you know, poor Pique, a cdm playing as a Cb And many stupid defensive line ups.
Do you think we have the best defense in the world ? Statistically yes. But on paper it's laughable to think it.

I cannot support this point. Barca has NEVER had the best defense in Europe statistically, and have never been closer than 3rd in the CL. Their Spanish record, despite having fallen of recently, is really good, but nowhere can I find any evidence that Barca is or was the best defence in Europe.

Lol one last note, we always give Arsenal so much crap for drawing Bayern, but poor little Schalke would always have great GA and then get Real in the R16 and give up 6-9. Poor Schalke.

EDIT: I will, on the other hand, make the concession that if you were to average out the last decade, Barca would possibly have the best CL defense. Atleti missed a few CL's ten years ago, and United has missed a few recently, otherwise this might not be the case. However, this is not true for Europe as whole, the Italian teams in particular had far better GA's for all 10 years in league play.

This is why Maradona is bigger than Messi and has his own freaking church in Argentina. Messi is miles away.

Your example about other forwards sun is irrelevant for me, I talk about a team having Messi in their line up not Poland or another random nation/team.
Next time before jumping on me with your "uhh" make sure you watch games or at least verify the stats...

For Cl it depends on who you face, and the stage. In finals Barca conceded the less. Also since you are à stat master, the few number of games in CL cant be enough quantitative to get a fair judgement.
You may face rubbish team that concede 14 goals over two legs and you may face in form monster team that put 10 goals over you in only 2 games where you arent good and therefore influence the statistics of à whole season...

But it's not my point you are trying again to drag me into a Barca debate while I'm talking about Messi impact on opponents and direct impact on his defence exposure....
I just don't know why you insist.

Your example about other forwards sun is irrelevant for me, I talk about a team having Messi in their line up not Poland or another random nation/team.

As much as people like to harp on Messi as a god, he's still just a player. You can draw comparisons with people who play like him (albeit not as well) to make general conclusions about his own team.

Next time before jumping on me with your "uhh" make sure you watch games or at least verify the stats...

Of all the things you could accuse me of, verifying the stats is hardly one of them.

For Cl it depends on who you face, and the stage. In finals Barca conceded the less. Also since you are à stat master, the few number of games in CL cant be enough quantitative to get a fair judgement.
You may face rubbish team that concede 14 goals over two legs and you may face in form monster team that put 10 goals over you in only 2 games where you arent good and therefore influence the statistics of à whole season...

If you make the final, you play 13 games. Barca usually made at least the semis, so average that out to 10 games a season, over 10 seasons, is 100 games. That's a very healthy amount of data.

As for the other point here, I did note that for Bayern specifically, it happened to them nearly every season. Even happened to Barca twice, and if I removed all 5+ goal games, other team's defenses would have far and away better GA than Barca. I don't see how that helps your point.

In the finals specifically, Barca actually concede consistently with their other numbers, giving up 2 goals in 3 games or 0.6 on average in their finals over the last ten years. As I've been saying this whole time, it's their attack that gets them the victories, as they scored an average of 2.6 goals in their finals. Barca's defense is good. But it isn't the best, and on a year-by-year basis, it isn't close.

But it's not my point you are trying again to drag me into a Barca debate while I'm talking about Messi impact on opponents and direct impact on his defence exposure....

Based on the numbers I saw when I did this, the Barca defense has been incredibly consistent with a significant improvement during the Pep years and a significant dropoff when he left. This implies that the Barca defense responds to tactics, not having Messi, because obviously Messi was there this whole time. Which is logical. And makes you wrong.

I just don't know why you insist.

I insist because I don't like people saying things that are obviously wrong, and then act impervious to any attempt on the part of anyone that says so. I could have reasoned this all out quite nicely, but you would've just denied it and told me I'm wrong because I don't watch every single Barca game. Since you can't argue with numbers, that's what I had to use. Even then you try pretty hard by pointing out potential pitfalls in my data collection that I noted in my own post and hardly make any difference whatsoever.

Go watch Messi games first, How many do you watch a season. If Messi needs 3 or 4 players to be neutralized, thats 4 players less for his teammates to worry about, therefore his impact is further than just scoring goals or creating chances or dribling past 4 players, or through passes between the lines, his only presence on the pitch is significant for opponents, last player to get that much of attention was phenomeno at Inter Milan before injury, their potential is that huge that teams anticipate any lost ball and cover their space even while attacking.

Start watching him play consistently then we will talk.

tiki is right. even if messi does nothing on the pitch, his presence takes markings of his teammates.