^ By you. That doesn't make it the truth, at all.

You have to appreciate, Salahadin, that for a long time on FootyRoom, while the PL was clearly the best league in Europe, we had to endure constant accusations of 'bias', just for pointing out that (just for example) La Liga defenses were frankly, not typically as good as PL defenses.

And yet... we often find that the very same people who led this BS charge of 'bias' against PL fans, are the exact same ones who feel no shame whatsoever in trashing, insulting and being biased against the PL.

Fair's fair, after all. ;)

^ By you. That doesn't make it the truth, at all.

You have to appreciate, Salahadin, that for a long time on FootyRoom, while the PL was clearly the best league in Europe, we had to endure constant accusations of 'bias', just for pointing out that (just for example) La Liga defenses were frankly, not typically as good as PL defenses.

And yet... we often find that the very same people who led this BS charge of 'bias' against PL fans, are the exact same ones who feel no shame whatsoever in trashing, insulting and being biased against the PL, and constantly flooding the forum with their own (naked) biases.

Fair's fair, after all. ;)

If moving to the PL is such a 'step down', then why does the PL keep on being the place that Real and Barca have to go looking to find players that are better than their own?

^ By you. That doesn't make it the truth, at all.

You have to appreciate, Salahadin, that for a long time on FootyRoom, while the PL was clearly the best league in Europe, we had to endure constant accusations of 'bias', just for pointing out that (just for example) La Liga defenses were, frankly, not typically as good as PL defenses.

And yet... we often find that the very same people who led this BS charge of 'bias' against PL fans, are the exact same ones who feel no shame whatsoever in trashing, insulting and being biased against the PL, and constantly flooding the forum with their own (naked) biases.

Fair's fair, after all. ;)

If moving to the PL is such a 'step down', then why does the PL keep on being the place that Real and Barca have to go looking to find players that are better than their own?

^ By you. That doesn't make it the truth, at all.

You have to appreciate, Salahadin, that for a long time on FootyRoom, while the PL was clearly the best league in Europe, we had to endure constant accusations of 'bias', just for pointing out that (just for example) La Liga defenses were, frankly, not typically as good as PL defenses.

And yet... we often find that the very same people who led this BS charge of 'bias' against PL fans, are the exact same ones who feel no shame whatsoever in trashing, insulting and being biased against the PL, and constantly flooding the forum with their own (naked) biases.

Fair's fair, after all. ;)

If moving to the PL is such a 'step down', then why does the PL keep on being the place that Real and Barca have to go looking to find players that are better than their own?

"La liga defence is equal to the EPL some teams are better some teams are worse."

And PL offense is equal to La Liga, some teams are better, some teams are worse.

Right? Or are you not willing to concede that one? ;)

Yes, he is. That's because they couldn't find anyone good enough at any place other than Liverpool, in the PL.

It was the same with Ronaldo in 2009 and Bale in 2013. It was the same with Henry in 2007 and Fabregas in 2012. These were all players considerd an upgrade on what they currently have, since Real haven't really produced anyone great from youth since Raul Gonzalez, and even Barca have not churned out anyone world-class since 2011, except Thiago (who buggered off to join Guardiola in a 'step up' at Bayern).

Do you see what I mean? If the quality to match the best that La Liga has to offer is not present in the PL, then why do La Liga's two powerhouses keep spending the biggest money to bring in PL imports?

When was the last time Real or Barcelona bought a striker from a La Liga team?

Yes, he is. That's because they couldn't find anyone good enough at any place other than Liverpool, in the PL.

It was the same with Ronaldo in 2009 and Bale in 2013. It was the same with Henry in 2007 and Fabregas in 2012. These were all players considerd an upgrade on what they currently have, since Real haven't really produced anyone great from youth since Raul Gonzalez, and even Barca have not churned out anyone world-class since 2011, except Thiago (who buggered off to join Guardiola in a 'step up' at Bayern).

Do you see what I mean? If the quality to match the best that La Liga has to offer is not present in the PL, then why do La Liga's two powerhouses keep spending the biggest money to bring in PL imports?

In fact. when WAS the last time Real or Barcelona bought a striker from a La Liga team?

David Villa?

Yes, he is. That's because they couldn't find anyone good enough at any place other than Liverpool, in the PL.

It was the same with Ronaldo in 2009 and Bale in 2013. It was the same with Henry in 2007 and Fabregas in 2012. These were all players considerd an upgrade on what they currently have, since Real haven't really produced anyone great from youth since Raul Gonzalez, and even Barca have not churned out anyone world-class since 2011, except Thiago (who buggered off to join Guardiola in a 'step up' at Bayern).

Do you see what I mean? If the quality to match the best that La Liga has to offer is not present in the PL, then why do La Liga's two powerhouses keep spending the biggest money to bring in PL imports?

In fact. when WAS the last time Real or Barcelona bought a striker from a La Liga team?

David Villa? How much did he cost...? ;)

Yes, he is. That's because they couldn't find anyone good enough at any place other than Liverpool, in the PL.

It was the same with Ronaldo in 2009 and Bale in 2013. It was the same with Henry in 2007 and Fabregas in 2012. These were all players considerd an upgrade on what they currently have, since Real haven't really produced anyone great from youth since Raul Gonzalez, and even Barca have not churned out anyone world-class since 2011, except Thiago (who buggered off to join Guardiola in a 'step up' at Bayern).

Do you see what I mean? If the quality to match the best that La Liga has to offer is not present in the PL, then why do La Liga's two powerhouses keep spending the biggest money to bring in PL imports?

In fact. when WAS the last time Real or Barcelona bought a striker from a La Liga team?

I can only think of David Villa, in the last, like 7 years, Can you update me?

"Yes and most of the stars who came from EPL to La liga came from the first place from Ajax or Monaco or PSG or some other leagues,"

Yes, they do come from other leagues. And it's the PL which trains them to be good enough, to be an upgrade on what Barca and Real have.

You do know that the reverse happens just as much, too. right? All those South Americans playing in Spain who end up fetching great transfer fees when the richer PL clubs come knocking didn't start out in La Liga, did they?

Like I said: it's equal. ;)

"man most of the EPL top clubs their star players came from different leagues."

Well yes, but that's not a flaw with the quality of the league. That's just what happens when you spend a decade being the best league in the world. You scour Europe (and the world) for top talent because the home-grown talent becomes increasingly expensive. Italy benefited from this throughout the 90s, Spain did the same in the early 2000s. The key point is in admitting that PL has been the best, not in saying that it produces all it's own stars.

"This depend a lot on the need to,"

Sure. Are you suggesting that Real or Barca didn't need to, over the last 10 years, or something? Clearly, Real and Barca have needed striking reinforcements every year, to keep up with each other, and to keep up with the PL while Real spent 12 years absent from a CL final, etc.

The truth is: Madrid only started getting back into the world-class frame when they started buying from the PL. Ronaldo, Alonso, Modric, Bale have steadily improved the key parts of the Madrid line-up over time, to the point where a CL victory actually happened, and Barcelona could actually be beaten domestically.

And in Barcelona's case, the additions of Henry, Pique, Mascherano, were all needed to complement the powers of Messi, Iniesta, Xavi etc, and bring them back to a place where they were not being routinely beaten by PL opposition.

Both clubs clearly needed world-class players to bolster their talent in order to beat PL teams, especially in strikers, and neither club has gone in for a striker from a La Liga club in apparently a decade, except Villa. Does that not suggest that no matter how much the talent of Spain is funneled into the two big powerhouses, they still needed help from abroad to make them truly elite.

So, how can that not speak to the strength of the league they been spending the most money on buying from?

"We got Benzema from the french league does that mean that the french leauge is better than the spanish?"

Well, no, but it does suggest that La Liga's offense is not producing good enough results to make Madrid splash some cash on them, on a regular basis.

My whole point is: if one is going to say that La Liga defenses are as good as PL defenses, only different, then one has to automatically agree that PL offenses are as good as La Liga offenses, or else the transfer strategies of La Liga's two biggest-hitters make zero sense whatsoever.

See what I mean?

But fan-boys won't accept this.

"Yes and most of the stars who came from EPL to La liga came from the first place from Ajax or Monaco or PSG or some other leagues,"

Yes, they do come from other leagues. And it's the PL which trains them to be good enough, to be an upgrade on what Barca and Real have.

You do know that the reverse happens just as much, too. right? All those South Americans playing in Spain who end up fetching great transfer fees when the richer PL clubs come knocking didn't start out in La Liga, did they?

Like I said: it's equal. ;)

"man most of the EPL top clubs their star players came from different leagues."

Well yes, but that's not a flaw with the quality of the league. That's just what happens when you spend a decade being the best league in the world. You scour Europe (and the world) for top talent because the home-grown talent becomes increasingly expensive. Italy benefited from this throughout the 90s, Spain did the same in the early 2000s. The key point is in admitting that PL has been the best, not in saying that it produces all it's own stars.

"This depend a lot on the need to,"

Sure. Are you suggesting that Real or Barca didn't need to, over the last 10 years, or something? Clearly, Real and Barca have needed striking reinforcements every year, to keep up with each other, and to keep up with the PL while Real spent 12 years absent from a CL final, etc.

The truth is: Madrid only started getting back into the world-class frame when they started buying from the PL. Ronaldo, Alonso, Modric, Bale have steadily improved the key parts of the Madrid line-up over time, to the point where a CL victory actually happened, and Barcelona could actually be beaten domestically.

And in Barcelona's case, the additions of Henry, Pique, Mascherano, were all needed to complement the powers of Messi, Iniesta, Xavi etc, and bring them back to a place where they were not being routinely beaten by PL opposition.

Both clubs clearly needed world-class players to bolster their talent in order to beat PL teams, especially in strikers, and neither club has gone in for a striker from a La Liga club in apparently a decade, except Villa. Does that not suggest that no matter how much the talent of Spain is funneled into the two big powerhouses, they still needed help from abroad to make them truly elite.

So, how can that not speak to the strength of the league they been spending the most money on buying from?

"We got Benzema from the french league does that mean that the french leauge is better than the spanish?"

Well, no, but it does suggest that La Liga's offense is not producing good enough results to make Madrid splash some cash on them, on a regular basis.

My whole point is: if one is going to say that La Liga defenses are as good as PL defenses, only different, then one has to automatically agree that PL offenses are as good as La Liga offenses, or else the transfer strategies of La Liga's two biggest-hitters make zero sense whatsoever.

See what I mean?

But fan-boys won't accept this.

"Yes and most of the stars who came from EPL to La liga came from the first place from Ajax or Monaco or PSG or some other leagues,"

Yes, they do come from other leagues. And it's the PL which trains them to be good enough, to be an upgrade on what Barca and Real have.

You do know that the reverse happens just as much, too. right? All those South Americans playing in Spain who end up fetching great transfer fees when the richer PL clubs come knocking didn't start out in La Liga, did they?

Like I said: it's equal. ;)

"man most of the EPL top clubs their star players came from different leagues."

Well yes, but that's not a flaw with the quality of the league. That's just what happens when you spend a decade being the best league in the world. You scour Europe (and the world) for top talent because the home-grown talent becomes increasingly expensive. Italy benefited from this throughout the 90s, Spain did the same in the early 2000s. The key point is in admitting that PL has been the best, not in saying that it produces all it's own stars.

"This depend a lot on the need to,"

Sure. Are you suggesting that Real or Barca didn't need to, over the last 10 years, or something? Clearly, Real and Barca have needed striking reinforcements every year, to keep up with each other, and to keep up with the PL while Real spent 12 years absent from a CL final, etc.

The truth is: Madrid only started getting back into the world-class frame when they started buying from the PL. Ronaldo, Alonso, Modric, Bale have steadily improved the key parts of the Madrid line-up over time, to the point where a CL victory actually happened, and Barcelona could actually be beaten domestically.

And in Barcelona's case, the additions of Henry, Pique, Mascherano, were all needed to complement the powers of Messi, Iniesta, Xavi etc, and bring them back to a place where they were not being routinely beaten by PL opposition. Even Fabregas, who was never fully assimilated into the team, cannot be denied his place as one of the world's best midfielders, trained for 8 years by Wenger at Arsenal.

Both clubs clearly needed world-class players to bolster their talent in order to beat PL teams, especially in strikers, and neither club has gone in for a striker from a La Liga club in apparently a decade, except Villa. Does that not suggest that no matter how much the talent of Spain is funneled into the two big powerhouses, they still needed help from abroad to make them truly elite.

So, how can that not speak to the strength of the league they been spending the most money on buying from?

"We got Benzema from the french league does that mean that the french leauge is better than the spanish?"

Well, no, but it does suggest that La Liga's offense is not producing good enough results to make Madrid splash some cash on them, on a regular basis.

My whole point is: if one is going to say that La Liga defenses are as good as PL defenses, only different, then one has to automatically agree that PL offenses are as good as La Liga offenses, or else the transfer strategies of La Liga's two biggest-hitters make zero sense whatsoever.

See what I mean?

But fan-boys won't accept this.

"Yes and most of the stars who came from EPL to La liga came from the first place from Ajax or Monaco or PSG or some other leagues,"

Yes, they do come from other leagues. And it's the PL which trains them to be good enough, to be an upgrade on what Barca and Real have.

You do know that the reverse happens just as much, too. right? All those South Americans playing in Spain who end up fetching great transfer fees when the richer PL clubs come knocking didn't start out in La Liga, did they?

Like I said: it's equal. ;)

"man most of the EPL top clubs their star players came from different leagues."

Well yes, but that's not a flaw with the quality of the league. That's just what happens when you spend a decade being the best league in the world. You scour Europe (and the world) for top talent because the home-grown talent becomes increasingly expensive. Italy benefited from this throughout the 90s, Spain did the same in the early 2000s. The key point is in admitting that PL has been the best, not in saying that it produces all it's own stars.

"This depend a lot on the need to,"

Sure. Are you suggesting that Real or Barca didn't need to, over the last 10 years, or something? Clearly, Real and Barca have needed striking reinforcements every year, to keep up with each other, and to keep up with the PL while Real spent 12 years absent from a CL final, etc.

The truth is: Madrid only started getting back into the world-class frame when they started buying from the PL. Ronaldo, Alonso, Modric, Bale have steadily improved the key parts of the Madrid line-up over time, to the point where a CL victory actually happened, and Barcelona could actually be beaten domestically.

And in Barcelona's case, the additions of Henry, Pique, Mascherano, were all needed to complement the powers of Messi, Iniesta, Xavi etc, and bring them back to a place where they were not being routinely beaten by PL opposition. Even Fabregas, who was never fully assimilated into the team, cannot be denied his place as one of the world's best midfielders, trained for 8 years by Wenger at Arsenal.

Both clubs clearly needed world-class players to bolster their talent in order to beat PL teams, especially in strikers, and neither club has gone in for a striker from a La Liga club in apparently a decade, except Villa. Does that not suggest that no matter how much the talent of Spain is funneled into the two big powerhouses, they still needed help from abroad to make them truly elite?

So, how can that not speak to the strength of the league they been spending the most money on buying from? If the league they dominate cannot provide the answers they seek, but their rival league can, what does this suggest?

"We got Benzema from the french league does that mean that the french leauge is better than the spanish?"

Well, no, but it does suggest that La Liga's offense is not producing good enough results to make Madrid splash some cash on them, on a regular basis.

My whole point is: if one is going to say that La Liga defenses are as good as PL defenses, only different, then one has to automatically agree that PL offenses are as good as La Liga offenses, or else the transfer strategies of La Liga's two biggest-hitters make zero sense whatsoever.

See what I mean?

But fan-boys won't accept this.

Having an attack only with out any defence will not get you the trophies (Barcelona) . As for team strength, CFC's matches Barca/Real. Even City's team is not that bad. Hazard, Costa, & Oscar/ Schurle are no less of players than Messi, Neymar and Suarez in team play. Individually, I'd say Barca or Real have the best attacks- player to player. Coaching is the X-factor, and Mou has made a very strong CFC team this year that will compete for wins in all the cups. If you do not think coaching counts, look at the previous Galacticos for Real. They didn't win anything. Real would have an awesome team if Perez wouldn't ruin the stability, but I highly doubt it.

You are talking about this season. Yes like i said above Chelsea is getting close to that level . But man don't compare anyone with Messi only C.Ronaldo is his rival there. Even last season barca defence wasn't as bad as many people claim they came 2nd in La liga and Semi-finals in CL. But they weren't on the level that Barca usually have.

"The quality of the leagues are no different imo its just that there is not a team in the EPL that on the level of RM or Barca."

I disagree, and think both City and Chelsea are on the level of those two. Their rosters are directly comparable, and in the case of City are going to get better with each year they play together (and are added to). We cannot forget that City are still only 5 years old, as a force in recent football history.

"you cant compare many teams in the world to Real or Barca that's just being unrealistic."

Sure, but you can see the reverse, right? That is, taking the best teams in a less competitive league does not mean that the league is reflective of their talent. Bayern reign supreme in Germany, and half their squad just won the World Cup, but that doesn't mean that their league is as strong or powerful as La Liga or the PL.

The difference is mainly: the PL has their top talent spread across more teams.

Consider, Salahadin: Angel di Maria was probably Madrid's best player, last season. Who is buying him? The 7th best team in England. So, yes, moving from Madrid to United might, right now, be a step down, but moving to the PL? Not in the slightest, if the league's 7th best team are looking to improve by buying the European Champions' best performer last season.

By contrast? Madrid broke the world transfer record to sign the best player of England's 5th best team, in order to try and win that European Cup.

So, nah. It's not a step down at all. He's moving to a harder league, where the talent is less concentrated. He'll still be as good as he was; he'll just stand out less, is all. Hence me thinking he'll have a hard first season.

"The quality of the leagues are no different imo its just that there is not a team in the EPL that on the level of RM or Barca."

I disagree, and think both City and Chelsea are on the level of those two. Their rosters are directly comparable, and in the case of City are going to get better with each year they play together (and are added to). We cannot forget that City are still only 5 years old, as a force in recent football history.

"you cant compare many teams in the world to Real or Barca that's just being unrealistic."

Sure, but you can see the reverse, right? That is, taking the best teams in a less competitive league does not mean that the league is reflective of their talent. Bayern reign supreme in Germany, and half their squad just won the World Cup, but that doesn't mean that their league is as strong or powerful as La Liga or the PL.

The difference is mainly: the PL has their top talent spread across more teams.

Consider, Salahadin: Angel di Maria was probably Madrid's best player, last season. Who is buying him? The 7th best team in England. So, yes, moving from Madrid to United might, right now, be a step down, but moving to the PL? Not in the slightest, if the league's 7th best team are looking to improve by buying the European Champions' best performer last season.

By contrast? Madrid broke the world transfer record to sign the best player of England's 5th best team, in order to try and win that European Cup.

So, nah. It's not a step down at all. He's moving to a harder league, where the talent is less concentrated. He'll still be as good as he was; he'll just stand out less, is all. Hence me thinking he'll have a hard first season.

"The quality of the leagues are no different imo its just that there is not a team in the EPL that on the level of RM or Barca."

I disagree, and think both City and Chelsea are on the level of those two. Their rosters are directly comparable, and in the case of City are going to get better with each year they play together (and are added to). We cannot forget that City are still only 5 years old, as a force in recent football history.

"you cant compare many teams in the world to Real or Barca that's just being unrealistic."

Sure, but you can see the reverse, right? That is, taking the best teams in a less competitive league does not mean that the league is reflective of their talent. Bayern reign supreme in Germany, and half their squad just won the World Cup, but that doesn't mean that their league is as strong or powerful as La Liga or the PL.

The difference is mainly: the PL has their top talent spread across more teams.

Consider, Salahadin: Angel di Maria was probably Madrid's best player, last season. Who is buying him? The 7th best team in England. So, yes, moving from Madrid to United might, right now, be a step down, but moving to the PL? Not in the slightest, if the league's 7th best team are looking to improve by buying the European Champions' best performer last season.

By contrast? Madrid broke the world transfer record to sign the best player of England's 5th best team, in order to try and win that European Cup, and Barcelona spent nearly as much on the best player of England's 2nd best team, to try and get back to the top in Spain.

So, nah. It's not a step down at all. He's moving to a harder league, where the talent is less concentrated. He'll still be as good as he was; he'll just stand out less, is all. Hence me thinking he'll have a hard first season.

"Even last season barca defence wasn't as bad as many people claim they came 2nd in La liga and Semi-finals in CL."

Quarter Finals, just to be precise. And that was down to scoring a lot, instead of conceding a few, wasn't it?

"Even last season barca defence wasn't as bad as many people claim they came 2nd in La liga and Semi-finals in CL."

Quarter Finals, just to be precise. And that was down to scoring a lot, instead of conceding a few, wasn't it?

"Even last season barca defence wasn't as bad as many people claim they came 2nd in La liga and Semi-finals in CL."

Quarter Finals, just to be precise. And that was down to scoring a lot, instead of conceding a few, wasn't it?

"But they weren't on the level that Barca usually have."

In which case: you cannot claim they are as good as they used to be, and therefore better than anyone in the PL, can you? Chelsea were below their usual standard too, weren't they? They still managed to get to a CL semi-final, before all the exciting new signings.

See how it works? Fairness. :)

"I could tell you this and make a point but what im trying to say City still have to prove themselves in CL to be considered on the level im talking about."

Well, of course they do. Just like they did against Bayern, whom they beat and were one goal away from topping in their group. Barcelona themselves have a lot to prove, before they can be considered one of the big contenders.

"Chelsea has always been strong but they still were below the bar of which Barca and Real have put. "

They won the CL in 2012, mate, and then the Europa League in 2013, taking Bayern to penalties in the UEFA Super Cup, and then reached a CL semi-final.

What's for them to prove?

"This season i say they have the means to be there but they need to show it before we can judge, it is still to early."

And that's the same with everyone, including Bayern, Barcelona, City, Chelsea, Atletico etc. The only team with nothing to prove is Madrid, though even they will want to stamp their mark once again.

You cannot pick and choose which teams to say: "oh, they're on a higher level" when the performances say otherwise. That would be bias, wouldn't it? See what I am getting at? ;)

Anyway, I'm off to bed. Night, and cheers for the civil chat. :)

"I could tell you this and make a point but what im trying to say City still have to prove themselves in CL to be considered on the level im talking about."

Well, of course they do. Just like they did against Bayern, whom they beat and were one goal away from topping in their group. Barcelona themselves have a lot to prove, before they can be considered one of the big contenders. Managing to beat someone with 11 men would be a nice start.

"Chelsea has always been strong but they still were below the bar of which Barca and Real have put. "

They won the CL in 2012, mate, and then the Europa League in 2013, taking Bayern to penalties in the UEFA Super Cup, and then reached a CL semi-final.

What's for them to prove?

"This season i say they have the means to be there but they need to show it before we can judge, it is still to early."

And that's the same with everyone, including Bayern, Barcelona, City, Chelsea, Atletico etc. The only team with nothing to prove is Madrid, though even they will want to stamp their mark once again.

You cannot pick and choose which teams to say: "oh, they're on a higher level" when the performances say otherwise. That would be bias, wouldn't it? See what I am getting at? ;)

Anyway, I'm off to bed. Night, and cheers for the civil chat. :)

"I could tell you this and make a point but what im trying to say City still have to prove themselves in CL to be considered on the level im talking about."

Well, of course they do. Just like they did against Bayern, whom they beat and were one goal away from topping in their group. Barcelona themselves have a lot to prove, before they can be considered one of the big contenders this season. After all, they won nothing last year, and have been on a downward trend in Europe for 3 seasons now. What happens if they play City, but City don't go down to 10 men (in both legs) this time, for example?

Who can say?

"Chelsea has always been strong but they still were below the bar of which Barca and Real have put. "

They won the CL in 2012, mate, and then the Europa League in 2013, taking Bayern to penalties in the UEFA Super Cup, and then reached a CL semi-final.

What's for them to prove?

"This season i say they have the means to be there but they need to show it before we can judge, it is still to early."

And that's the same with everyone, including Bayern, Barcelona, City, Chelsea, Atletico etc. The only team with nothing to prove is Madrid, though even they will want to stamp their mark once again.

You cannot pick and choose which teams to say: "oh, they're on a higher level" when the performances say otherwise. That would be bias, wouldn't it? See what I am getting at? ;)

Anyway, I'm off to bed. Night, and cheers for the civil chat. :)

"I could tell you this and make a point but what im trying to say City still have to prove themselves in CL to be considered on the level im talking about."

Well, of course they do. Just like they did against Bayern, whom they beat and were one goal away from topping in their group. Barcelona themselves have a lot to prove, before they can be considered one of the big contenders this season. After all, they won nothing last year, and have been on a downward trend in Europe for 3 seasons now. What happens if they play City, but City don't go down to 10 men (in both legs) this time, for example?

Who can say?

"Chelsea has always been strong but they still were below the bar of which Barca and Real have put. "

They won the CL in 2012, mate, and then the Europa League in 2013, taking Bayern to penalties in the UEFA Super Cup, and then reached a CL semi-final in 2014.

What's for them to prove?

"This season i say they have the means to be there but they need to show it before we can judge, it is still to early."

And that's the same with everyone, including Bayern, Barcelona, City, Chelsea, Atletico etc. The only team with nothing to prove is Madrid, though even they will want to stamp their mark once again.

You cannot pick and choose which teams to say: "oh, they're on a higher level" when the performances say otherwise. That would be bias, wouldn't it? See what I am getting at? ;)

Anyway, I'm off to bed. Night, and cheers for the civil chat. :)