Simple question

• Will Arsenal qualify to the next round of UCL?
  • YES
  • NO

@SunFlash ''Koscielny is not world class, has never been world class. Doesn't mean he isn't solid though.''

Lol at smalling and alderweireld being world class. Maybe when smalling plays 3 seasons in a row like this one we can talk. Koscielny has been carrying our defense since forever. All arsenal fans agree our 3 best players are Alexis Ozil and Koscielny. Maybe they are four now with Cech. He had first to play next to Vermaelen who was averaging 1 mistake per game and is now next to mertesacker who turns slower than the titanic. And he still makes our defense look decent.

Seriously Koscielny I thought was recognized by now but it seems not. Instead people still believe he is bad because of his own goals and mistakes from when he joined arsenal. Smalling has been class this season but Koscielny has been class since 2012.

Ofcourse they are four . Excluding Cech of world class status is ridiculous. Peter Cech through and through still world class goalkeeper . I am happy and afraid he will carry on like Van Der Sar did all the way till 40s...

Koscielny looks better this year because Cech has been outstanding"

You guys are starting to get me absolute f*cking mad. Better to stop before insulting starts/continues from my side.

ABSOLUTE BULLSH*T.

.

I get that you guys are mad, but insulting me won't change my opinion. What will is some civil conversation, which I usually have with the Arsenal crew on here, but apparently this is a sensitive topic that turns nice Arsenal supporters into the average United or Chelsea fan I find on social media.

Fine. Let's dance.

On the topic of world class, we had a thread about how world class is defined and everyone had different answers, but for the sake of this conversation I'm going to assume we are referring to best at the position in the world as of this moment and/or career pedigree. (I'm going with this because I personally do not think that there is a single defender playing right now who would make into my -or most people's- back four of the last ten years).

If no defender in the world fits that now, we get to talk about top four-five defenders, specifically CBs, in the world as of now. A few we can all agree to some degree on include Boateng and Silva. Beyond that, most people would include Kompany (minus last year because that was diabolical), and Ramos. The other spot most people would pick Chellini, but I think he's overrated and would go instead with any of Otamendi, Hummels, or Benitia.

Out of the eight centre backs I mentioned above, to believe Koscielny is world class you would have to believe he's better than any three of them. Personally, I don't see how anyone could get him in there, but your opinions are cool.

For the record, anyone who bothered to read my previous post before dismissing it as illogical hate should have noticed I mentioned Smalling and Alderweireld on the merits of THIS SEASON ALONE. Not saying they are better than Koscielny, (although personally I believe it's close) just that they've been better THIS SEASON.

@Joze, you are right, I am not an expert. But that doesn't mean I'm an idiot. If my opinions differ from those held by the majority in this thread, I'm ok with that, and all you other people should be too. We're allowed to have different opinions, and for the record, as long the ones you hold are reasonable (which they are), and you're not trying swear me off the forum, I couldn't give less of a damn.

But no, you guys had to take it to that next level.

Thanks.

@sunflash

Kudos for having your own opinion despite majority thinking otherwise .

Not to drag away conversation off the topic . Though your definition ( or that threads definition ) does injustice to other players . In this case Koscielny .

I assume you mean world class should be three best players in the world for specific position ? So basically if there is Lewandowski , Suarez and Bezema considered as world class strikers then Tevez , Neymar , Ibrahimovic is not world class . Am i getting it right ?

I love Koscienly personally, fast, agressive, not that bad with a ball on his feet, good heading, good duel winning, team spirit, big heart...

But i hate the Kospenalty player inside him, he could cost you a penalty in some tricky situations, the one vs Ukraine for absolutely no reason in the WC play offs almost costed France their participation. The one vs Barça killed Arsenal chance to give a fight for a ticket place.

At the highest level, games are won by details and experience plays a big role. Aside from this if he works enough on this mistake, yes he can climb to that level.

Just few names in mind : Benatia - Godin - Chiellini - Abdennour - Thiago Silva - Hummells - Varane - Otamendi - Kompany are all better imo as a whole, but Koscienly is clearly underrated considering he fact that he hasnt been stable enough with les Bleus as a CB.

@Marcus

Well I had top five, with additional options going up to eight. Making myself actually name out all the best CBs in the world made me confirm my opinion that Koscielny isn't even top ten, but that's just an opinion, like I said.

I know what you're saying, and to be honest I'm not sure. As I mentioned in my previous post - and throughout my time on this forum - I don't believe that there is what I would call a defender worth mentioning in the all time greats, mainly because the laws of the game and the way the game is called - particularly in Spain, but increasingly everywhere else - have made it far more difficult for defenders and easier for attackers.

With that in mind, we have a lower calibur of defenders, and by default, higher calibur of attackers. Or so we perceive. Therefore for every "perceived world-class defender" we don't have, we get an additional "perceived world-class attacker."

I hope that makes sense, if not, let me know and I'll attempt to clarify.

I also noticed that Koscienly presence gave Arsenal big chances of having clean cheets more often than when he wasnt playing, but then again PL suits him the most with its physical style.
Im clearly a fan with tactical defenders, more than just power and aggressivity, i prefer those who read the game, close spaces, i just forget Chelsea's captain too despite the actual form and results and Piqué when in form, individually they can get there too.
Its about preference, Maldini style or Nesta anytime rather than Canavarro or Stam and it maybe be bias because its personal preference.

@Sunflash I think the same but in the opposite way, having world class players like phenomeno destroying completely Nesta or Maldini doesnt mean Nesta or Maldini are shit. Defenders and specially WC ones will shut you down many times in a game, but a genious player will find a moment to defeat them.
Im definitely fan of total Football with Attack as a philosophy, the catennacio way is also efficient for results but if each team does the same, there will be no action in the game.
When people see a poor defending League because Bayern trash teams with 4 or 5 goals, they dont see that in a bad day, the own team they support would get trashed same way against a very consistent machine called Bayern. I personally dont see Bundesliga as a weak league personally judging on how good Their clubs do while not facing the German top 2.

@DecentK

Dynastian if you don't think he's top 5 CB in the world then there must be something wrong with your head - sorry for the insult. I am sure Koscielny would walk in to any starting XI in the world.

SunFlash summed up 'world-class' for quite a few people. The top 3-5 players in their position are considered 'world-class'. For Marcus' opinion on strikers, you would probably include the likes of Ibra, Lewa, Aguero, Benzema, and Suarez in that list (Tevez is extremely good but not as good as the five I mentioned, and Neymar isn't a pure striker).

In the case of CBs, we have the likes of Silva, Ramos, Boateng (arguably the best right now), Otamendi, Benatia, Kompany, Chielini, Godin (people seem to forget him), Varane, Bonucci, and of course, Koscielny. These players have been more or less consistent in their performances over the last few years (excluding Kompany).

Now if we were to choose a top 3 or a top 5 from this, no doubt that Boateng and Silva would be in it. Otamendi was the best defender in La Liga last season by a mile, and Godin has been one of the finest (and dirtiest) CBs in the world for many seasons now. Ramos is exceptional but tends to go brain-dead once every few games with a punch or kick here and there, Varane is regarded as Madrid's best defender, and Bonucci and Chiellini are an excellent duo in Italy.

Which leaves us with Koscielny: a good defender who gets to see more action from the ball due to a poorer midfield than any of the other teams but isn't as good as any of the other players. When Real Madrid's defense was bad (2012-14), it made Ramos exceptional because he got to showcase his defensive skills so much. If Boateng got the ball half as many times as Koscielny he would register astonishing stats. Don't be fooled: Koscielny is a great defender but definitely not top 5 in the world.

I'll be happy to contribute to this thread with a few points:

• A world class player shouldn't be defined by an amount of players, say top 5 in the world. But for certain qualities and performance in the field week to week. There can very well be 10 top class or world class CBs as there can be 5, the same goes for every position.
  e.g.
• there are a bunch of world class midfielders, I would say around 10, and there are also a bunch of world class keepers (10-15) but there are just a few LBs and RBs in the world who could be considered top class.

• A world class player is very much defined by recent performance and a short term (1-2 seasons) record to back him up, meaning that it is a combination of previous performance and current one to say if a player is WC or not. Smalling would not be a world class player because he only now started to play at such level.

• Koscienly is a world class CB, there is no doubt in that. He can make it in almost any starting XI in the world with the exception of RM and maybe Juventus. His pace and tactical awareness is makes him one of the most intelligent defenders out there and any team would be lucky to have him.

• And btw...
  • NO.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, Olympiacos only needs to get 1pt. out of their last two games to seal 2nd place and leave Arsenal out; so chances are Arsenal would be playing EL at best.

@tuanis I agree on your definition of world class. For me world class is the top level, meaning when it gets to a point where it's very difficult to say who's better than a player. And you're right world class imo is not defined on a number of players.

Example : it's impossible to say for sure that someone is better than lewandowski, aguero or suarez, and at the same time it's difficult to say who's better between them. Same can be said of Cech, Keylor Navas, De Gea, Courtois, etc. The exceptions of course to this rule are Neuer, Messi and Ronaldo.

You're right that olympiakos need only 1 point, but they play bayern away who will play for first place in the group and us who are our backs against the wall.

@Tuanis dont forget that Olympiakos are playing Bayern, so in 99% of cases Bayern would get 3pts. Arsenal MUST win vs Zagreb to be able to play the final vs Olympiakos.
And a small details wich could be very big at the end : Olympiakos doesnt need 1 pt, if they loose to Arsenal by 1 goal margin and loose 10-0 to Bayern, they would still qualify.

Arsenal have the quality to do it, and i think Bayern will help them. A clear example of it is Newcastle a decade ago, they lost their 3 first games in 2002 and ended up qualifying by winning their last 3.

Considering Bayern strenght i would say that its up to Gunners to make the miracle, or NOT. A sharp Giroud and an in form Sanchez-Ozil are needed here, if Bellerin and the rest play their heart and fight it could happen. On paper its not impossible but im more affraid of the number of clear chances they miss.

"if they loose to Arsenal by 1 goal margin and loose 10-0 to Bayern, they would still qualify."

Unless they lose 3-4 or above, then Arsenal will progress. Actually, not sure if Olympiakos has scored more than Arsenal, because Arsenal might even progress if they win 2-3..

They'll definitively progress if they win with more than 1 goal away or win with 1 goal margin and score 3 (Perhaps 4) or more goals..

It will be a closed game like the away one at Monaco, Olympiakos arent fool enough to open the game. The under 3.5 will be an easy bet in that game, dont know if i bet on that...
At 2-3 ( unlikely score ), the goal difference will be applied not the goals scored, and 3-4 lol it will never be this sort of games unless Arsenal leads 0-2 early in the game wich is also unlikely.
Likely qualification scores for Gunners 0-2, 1-3.

under 3.5.. like 1.15 times the money.. You should bet on it.

@Sunflash Obviously insulting doesn't help, but I was at so mad state - 'cause for me watching him SCREAMS world class. There's nothing wrong arguing about something. But when something for me is so obvious, it's really hard to even read smthing that is so wrong.

And yes, had I continued - I would've brought some unnecessary bullsh*t, which doesn't help the discussion.

To the topic. Really hard to add anything when Tiki gave some really great points.

Considering Bayern strenght i would say that its up to Gunners to make the miracle, or NOT. A sharp Giroud and an in form Sanchez-Ozil are needed here, if Bellerin and the rest play their heart and fight it could happen. On paper its not impossible but im more affraid of the number of clear chances they miss.

--

It will be a closed game like the away one at Monaco

If Arsenal don't truly cock it up, it will be very similar to the Monaco game agree.

Alexis Sanchez and Cazorla may miss Olympiacos game ... ok now I think it is over if that will happen .

Cazorla's form has been really bad in last month, I would't be surprised if he was playing with pain or some kind of injury. Alexis will be huge miss, now everything relays on Ozil I guess. All players with the hunger are injured. However you never know with Arsenal, once they hit all their chances and once they are Torres'ing everything.

Going to be tough for them, with their injuries (once again). They're capable of it, though.

As for Koscielny...

...well, let me say instead that the fact that Kompany is missing from everyone's 'world class list' is criminal, as well as Silva and Vertonghen, all three of which are better than most of the names given (certainly Godin :p). So, the fact that Kos doesn't get enough credit isn't that surprising, really.

He's very good. I wouldn't call him world class, but then, I'm a Spurs fan. ;)