The best league in the world. What does that mean? How do you define that? How can you define that?

This question has been lurking in many of the discussions we've had on this forum recently, so we may as well bring it into the open. I recognize in advance that this topic rises the blood of many (not sure why), so do try to keep it civil in your responses.

Let's have facts and reason prevail over hot-headedness please.

That being said, let's begin.

How do you define "best league in the world?

There are many different ways to do this. Some common ones are:

1) The league that has the best players in the world
2) The league that has the most money in the world
3) The league that has the most competition in the world
4) The league that has the most competition for the title in the world
5) The league that has the most success in European competitions
6) The league that has the most demanding physical requirements
7) The league that is the most fun to watch/follow

I have no doubt you will use these and other methods to attempt to prove your respective league is the best, and then argue over which reason is most valid. To me, this is idiotic, so I will compare and contrast each league based off of every single above definition. Let's start small.

The argument for Serie A as the best league in the world

We have to start somewhere.

In definition 1, the best players in the world are referred too. So how does Serie A fit in there? If we use the FIFA 40-man shortlist (a terrible metric I know, but it works for this discussion) Serie A had 6 players on this list. However, they were all from a single club, Juventus. This somewhat limits the impact of this point, and while plenty of other very good players play in Serie A (Higuain, Pogba, Pjanic, Miranda, Hamsik, etc) they are all basically limited to Juventus and Napoli. Roma, the usual second team in the league for the past couple seasons, doesn't have a single player who it is possible to say is world-class. In addition, no Serie A player has won the Ballon d'or since Kaka in 2007.

Serie A fails by definition 1.

Definition 2 is not up for debate, simply fact. Serie A makes a nice chunk of money, and its owners are well-off, they have decent TV deals, but they are not on the level of Spain and England.

Serie A fails by definition 2.

Definition 3, most competition, don't make me laugh. Although there is a slight possibly Juventus won't win the league this year, they still probably will, and that will make it 5 straight league titles. In addition, the difference in points from first place to last place in Serie A is almost always the largest in all of Europe. Awful.

Serie A fails by definition 3.

Definition 4, competition for the title, just went over that.

Serie A fails by definition 4.

Definition 5, the most success in Europe, is an interesting one. The simple fact that Italy does not have 4 champions league spots, speaks volumes. In addition, because Lazio lost to Bayer in the playoff, only two teams, Juventus and Roma, made it to the CL this season. Of course, last season, Juventus were runners-up, and this season, both teams have made it to the round of 16. However, neither may see the quarter-finals, after getting drawn against Bayern and Real Madrid. Clearly, there is a long way to go for Serie A in Europe, although that is no fault of Juventus.

Serie A fails by definition 5.

Definition 6, the league that has the most demanding physical requirements, is interesting as well. England likes to talk about how physical their league is, but it is not ever close to Serie A, who have more red and yellow cards than any other European league. These are not soft cards either. Diving as it happens in England and Spain in particular is often shunned in Italy, whose national team and overall character is that of a defensive powerhouse. Much of this is opinion, but I'll give Serie A this ahead of the BPL.

Serie A meets the requirement of definition 6.

Definition 7, regarding how enjoyable it is to follow the league, I cannot speak for directly, as I do not watch Serie A. However, boring title challenges are boring. I had hope for it this season, but it now looks like Juventus again. In addition, Serie A has a reputation for being defensively focused and boring, but Shpalman did a convincing argument on that here:
http://footyroom.com/forum/football-talk/serie-a-the-most-boring-league-in-europe-think-again-69980?p=69980
However, the usual lack of a title challenge, coupled with most of the league consisting of lower quality players, means that I can't say Serie A is the best in the world for entertainment value.

Serie A fails by definition 7.

Total points for Serie A 1/7.

The argument for the Bundesliga as the best league in the world

No disrespect to Serie A, but this is where it beings to get interesting, as all the remaining leagues I will be looking at have all of their European spots.

Definition 1, regarding the best players in the world, meets an interesting case in the Bundesliga. On the FIFA 40-man shortlist, the Bundesliga has eight players, (nine technically, if you count De Bruyne). Six of those players are Bayern players, which is fair enough. Other players who come to mind that weren't on the list are Reus, Aubameyang, Hummels, Naldo, Draxler, Chicharito, Robben, Ribery,Douglas Costa, etc. Another aspect to think about is the German national team, who won the world cup primarily with Bundesliga players, with a couple non-major exceptions (remember Kroos did play for Bayern at the time). It certainly gives the Bundesliga a good argument for this definition. I will give them a half point for this, and elaborate why in the conclusion.

Bundesliga partially succeeds the requirements of definition 1.

Definition 2, or the most money, clearly is not won by the Bundesliga. Bayern has lots of money, and Wolfsburg splash around a bit, but I'm fairly certain they spend less than Italy (although I can't find the number to prove that).

The Bundesliga fails by definition 2.

Definition 3, or the most competition, is an interesting one. Really what is being examined here is the overall level of teams in the division. It is hard to directly compare the level of one leagues 10th place team to another leagues 10th place team, so I'll work with the metrics I have, with the help of one tiki-taka:

a team like wolfsburg has actually a top 4 Epl level, that means that if they get smashed often by Bayern it means that if Bayern would be playing in England the league would be a one horse league.
Dortmund or wolfsburg arent to blame if they play in the same league as Bayern (Originally posted on March 1st in the Pep thread)

I think that this is a very convincing point. Bayern is MILES ahead of the rest of the Bundesliga, so it is unfair to use Bayern as the measuring stick for the rest of the league, who have proven their worth when they play other leagues. Good example of that this season is Bayer (4th in the league) knocking Lazio (3rd in Serie A) out of the CL qualifying, or Wolfsburg (2nd) preventing Manchester United (4th) from advancing to the CL knockouts, or Dortmund (7th) smacking around Porto. With the exception of Bayern, the rest of the league is more competitive than any other league.

The Bundesliga succeeds in meeting definition 3.

Competition for a title? Find another league.

The Bundesliga horribly fails to meet the requirements of definition 4.

Definition 5, or the European success, has a case. In 2013, the CL was decided between Bayern and Dortmund. The Bundesliga has been represented in every semi-final since. However, with 2013 being a solitary exception, Bundesliga has played second fiddle to La Liga in both the CL and EL.

The Bundesliga fails by definition 5.

Definition 6, or physical requirements, the Bundesliga is pretty good. A nice winter break, coupled by solid officiating, and a desire to play good-looking football makes Bundesliga tough, but not near the level of Serie A.

The Bundesliga fails by definition 6.

Definition 7, as I've said already, is a matter of opinion. What is fun to watch/follow can vary from person to person. I do watch many Bundesliga games, and I can't say it's ever been depressing. That being said, like Serie A, the lack of a real title race kills the overall vibe of the league. If Bayern weakens, or a challenger to their dominance arises, this conversation could be very different.

The Bundesliga fails by definition 7.

Total points for the Bundesliga: 1 1/2

The argument for La Liga as the best league in the world

Here we go.

Definition 1, the best players in the world, I gave half a point to the Bundesliga because I feel that across their entire league, they have the best players. However, in terms of the best players in the world regardless of team distribution, this is not something that is up for debate. Led by Ronaldo and Messi, the squads of Barcelona and Real Madrid are full of the best players that the world has to offer. Other strong squads such as Ath Madrid, Valencia, and Sevilla also contain world-class players. I don't need to name them, you already know.

La Liga succeeds in meeting the requirements of definition 1.

Definition 2, or the most money in the world, I am going to divvy up. Barcelona and Real Madrid throw around so much money, not only in huge transfer fees (Neymar, Bale), but also stupid ones (Danilo), but it has the biggest wages that the world sees. Although watch out, China is coming for your wages.

La Liga partially meets the requirements of definition 2. The spread of wealth does not exist, but Barca and Madrid make up for that.

Definition 3, or the most competition in the world, is hardly worthy of a spot when it comes to La Liga at first glance. The domination of Barca and Real (10-2 anyone) really hurts any illusion that competition is happening. But much like the Bundesliga, I think that the elites need to be ignored for once. How do the rest of the teams stack up? It's still pretty meh. Sevilla and Valencia get results, with Athletico hanging in there, but the rest of the league has no money, and when they do, they don't spend it wisely. I do think that some of the TV deals need to cut out Barca and Madrid for the rest of the league to get better, but who sees that happening?

La Liga fails by definition 3.

Definition 4, or the title competition, again has a case. The competition between Barca and Madrid is exactly what the Bundesliga lacks. Athletico winning the title recently makes this a very good conversation. La Liga would win this definition, if it wasn't for the crazy title challenges in the BPL.

La Liga fails by definition 4.

Definition 5, or the most success in European competitions is the easiest point in this thread. Who won the CL and EL last year? Barcelona and Sevilla. Who played the CL final the year before? Both Madrids. RIP non-Spainish teams in European competition.

La Liga blatantly struts to win definition 5.

Definition 6, or physical requirements, well....yeah. La Liga players playing in Serie A with that diving would be the love-child between WWE and American football. I'd watch it. With popcorn.

La Liga fails by definition 6.

Definition 7, or the league that is most fun to watch/follow...is again a matter of opinion. I can only speak for myself here. I really enjoy watching the best players in the world, that La Liga has. Watching the Barca-Madrid game is just a rule. However, watching Barca/Madrid play anyone else is 95% likely to be super boring. 10 goals in a game just shouldn't be allowed.

I'll give La Liga a half point for this, because I understand that many people like watching the best players in the world.

Total La Liga points: 3/7

The argument for the BPL as the best league in the world

Definition 1, or best players in the world. On the FIFA 40-man shortlist, there are 4 BPL players, Hart, Aguero, Hazard, and Sanchez. Of those players, only Aguero would walk into any team's starting 11. That speaks volumes for me. I would rather have any of the Bayern/Barca/Madrid squads than a squad composed of any BPL players I wanted.

The BPL fails by definition 1.

Definition 2, or most money. Yes, the BPL has the most money. Actually, they probably don't, it's probably China. Or will be soon. Who knows. What I do know, is that the BPL is completely retarded when it comes to spending its money. United, Liverpool, and Chelsea spend metric fucktons and still won't make the CL. City's oil money can't get them titles ahead of Leicester. Arsenal refuses to spend theirs. What's the point of having money if you can't use it properly?

The BPL doesn't get a full point because of its incompetence. Still, they have tons of money, so they get a half point.

Definition 3, or most competition in the world, I already gave to the Bundesliga. I will, again, elaborate more about this in my conclusion, as it will no doubt tick off BPL fans.

The BPL fails by definition 3.

Definition 4, competition at the top. Look, when we're this far into the season and Leicester are on top, followed by a team that hasn't won in my lifetime, followed by a team that hasn't won in over a decade, followed by a team that's only won the thing twice ever, yeah, this is not even an argument.

The BPL succeeds by definition 4. Seriously, what happened at the top this year?

Definition 5, or the success in Europe...well...let's just say when City is your best chance to win something in Europe, your league probably sucks. I know Chelsea won awhile ago, but that entire team is basically gone. I mean, Terry and Ivanovic are still there, so that a plus (or minus) right? Seriously, Terry/Ivanovic/Cahill/Mikel are the only players left from that team. So don't give me that.

The BPL fails by definition 5.

Definition 6, or demanding physical requirements, is something that is usually trumpeted by BPL supporters. I would've been behind you guys for this point, but the BPL had to let law 18 in. More on that here:
http://footyroom.com/forum/football-talk/understanding-law-18-73953
Look, the LVG falling down in front of the forth official to protest Arsenal's diving was funny and all, but to me it reflected that you can actually get away with that the BPL now. Italy is way more physical, and it's not even close.

The BPL fails by definition 6.

Definition 7, or the league that is the most fun to watch/follow. I am fully behind the BPL on this one. You can watch any game, ANY game, and have no idea how it's going to end. Bornemouth beat United. Last year's dumpster fire will probably be this years champions. Norwich beat United. The game of the season involved Everton. Sunderland beat United. Last year's champions won't qualify for the CL, probably. Southampton beat United. You get the idea. (United beat Arsenal. Had to stick that last one in).

The BPL runs away with definition 7.

Total points for BPL: 2 1/2/7

Final standings:

La Liga: 3
BPL: 2 1/2
Bundesliga: 1 1/2
Serie A: 1

To conclude, I can already see some of the arguments, so let's touch on them before they even happen.

Why did you give the Bundesliga props ahead of the BPL for most competitive?

It's a pretty simple path of logic. The MLS is super competitive, but no one cares because the quality is so low. Therefore it can be concluded that competition only matters when it is going on at a high enough level. The level of play in the Bundesliga is simply higher than the BPL. Bayern miles better than any other BPL or Bundesliga side, but once you get past them, overall, the Wolfsburgs, Bayers, Dortmunds, Gladbachs, and Berlins of the world are simply better than the Liverpools, Uniteds, Arsenals, and Chelsea's of the world. This means that not only does competition happen in the Bundesliga, it happens at a higher level than in England.

Before I hear any of the "Liverpool isn't as good as Gladbach are you nuts!" arguments, keep in mind I've been hearing them for years. And when German teams play British teams, or Italian teams, or Portuguese teams, or anyone except the top level of Spain, really, they win. And since Europe (and international play) is the only metric I have, and it's logical to use it, the facts say Germany's upper table and mid-table clubs are simply better than Britain's. I can't compare the lower ones, obviously, but if Newcastle were to play Hannover, I don't think they'd win. That, of course, is my opinion, unlike the middle and upper tables.

I value X definition over X definition so this whole thread is worthless

Fine, go ahead. I just took all the arguments and lumped them together to create a conclusion. If you want to cherry-pick what I'm saying, whatever makes you happy.

So you think La Liga is the best league in the world right now?

Yes, I do. And I think the BPL needs to watch its back, because the Bundesliga is probably better as well. Having money to spend on players doesn't mean that your team is better than theirs. It should help, but it's not, because the people who are bringing in players for far more than they are worth are idiots.

I'm kind of intrigued to know how the community will receive this. And I swear, read the whole thing before you comment.

......And when German teams play British teams, or Italian teams, or Portuguese teams, or anyone except the top level of Spain, really, they win.....

Where's the stats to prove this? And where's Lodatz when you need him.

@Gustavo

The last German team that was eliminated in the CL by a British team was Bayern via Chelsea the year Chelsea won. Before 2012, England clearly had the upper hand, but that's totally changed since then. Even going on this season alone, Wolfsburg knocked out United, Bayern spilt Arsenal, and City smacked Gladbach (which was expected, as Gladbach was terrible to start the season).

But for the last 3 years, almost Spanish teams exclusively have defeated German teams in the knock-out rounds.

United are shit right now and Arsenal would have beat any German team if not Bayern in the years they played each other. The Bundesliga has definitely seen improvement in the last decade or so due to smart investment but to say it's more competitive than the PL is far-fetched imo. Are you including Europa League results, btw? Would that help your argument or make it worse? You should look into it if you haven't and get back to us cause I don't really know and am kinda lazy to look it up.

Bringing up Europa League I don't think that English teams would see it like a UCL trophy.

Travelling in much more km's in different countries plus the hard games of BPL and lesser money. Personally IF I was a manager and I managed to get a place at Europa League I would mostly play youngsters to give them experience since the competition itself gives way too less and drains way too much from my team. If the board though asks the manager to see the EL seriously that is a different story.

Dortmund drew Spurs for the next round of Europa, but aside from that, German and and English teams haven't played each other this season in that competition.

In 2014/15, Everton beat Wolfsburg twice in group stage, although it is worth noting that both sides barely played their first team in either game, as it was clear they were both going through.

Never played each other in 2013/14 or 2012/13.

I did research the Europa League before I began this thread and felt that two games that both involved England and Germany couldn't be used for analysis due to the teams that were fielded, and just the sheer lack on games, only 2 group stage games in four years, and only one knockout tie in the past half-decade that will be played later this month.

Besides, while United is **** right now, they are 5th in the BPL. Wolfsburg, who also haven't been having the best season, are 7th in the Bundesliga. Do whatever you want with that information.

EDIT: Basically Joze summed it up. I got the facts to match his opinion above.

Well, things change sporadically so even if we could prove the Bundesliga was more competitive this season compared to the PL, which I don't think we can, what's to say next year that trend will continue?

The Europa League is starting to give back and in the coming years I think it will be taken more seriously , even by us when we present our stats. This year Liverpool and Tottenham have fielded strong teams through out the competition and I believe have every intention of attempting to win the whole thing. Just this year Liverpool have beat and knocked out a strong but mediocre German side and I think the Dortmund vs Tottenham matches will be highly disputed.

Dammit, how did I miss the Liverpool-Augsburg tie? RIP my research.

Well, Augsburg is 13th in Germany this season, while Liverpool is 7th in the BPL and they still barely won.

I do agree with you that the Europa League will be taken more seriously though. Having the champion go through to the Champions League is a great incentive, and with new TV deals, more people will actually be watching the games. For example, I got Europa League on a Canadian station this year, and I've never had that tournament before, not even on American stations.

The thing is, there is so many competitive team in europe right that even the Europa is becoming more and more interesting. I mean, when you have to defeat team like United, Valencia and Dortmund to get the trophy, then, you know its a huge challenge and its quite the achievement even if its not the UCL. I sincerely hope every team in the tournament feel that way and take it seriously if only to make the game more entertaining.

It's not at all pointless and a valid argument. Here's why: Weather has a dramatic effect on football which in most western countries is played in the winter. Bad weather as it often is in England favor the weaker teams. Why? It makes the pitch unsuitable for long runs that requires a lot of ball control (technical football). Thus more long balls and passes that are easier to intercept. Overall bad weather conditions usually increases the defensive behavior which surprise, we see a lot of in the EPL. Wet grass for example increases the risk of slipping and cold conditions simply makes the ground a lot harder to fall at. the games simply become rougher.

Absolutely spot on from ktbfwhatever. I can tell from experience that it's f*cking different to play in +3c, windy or not instead of in +20c.
Put Messi to play in freezing cold & windy circumstances while the pitch is absolutely woeful and you could see that it's bit harder to keep the ball.

@Sunflash It's convenient to forget United did beat Wolfsburg this season at Old Trafford 2-1. And Arsenal beat Bayern. Okay, they got completely demolished at Allianz, but beating Bayern even once is a pretty big achievement. Man City defeated Gladbach twice. So yeah, you were saying?

The United victory is pretty irrelevant. It's like winning the first leg of a tie and then losing the tie in the second leg. When elimination was on the cards, Wolfsburg won. In terms of Bayern and Arsenal, I'm willing to admit Arsenal's single victory. Matter of fact, in the last three years, Arsenal was always able to get a result, but never actually defeat Bayern in a tie. If 2015 had been a tie, they would've been thumped. That's not unexpected either. Bayern is really good, but so is Arsenal. However, Arsenal is not as good as Bayern, as the last three years have clearly shown us. Besides, if Arsenal and other British teams are so good, why should beating Bayern even once be considered, in your words, "a pretty big achievement." Gladbach was so awful at the start of the season and City was so good...I'm not sure what else you expected...

I guess I fail to understand your point.

Did anyone really thought this was going to end all of the league supremacy discussions?...

Trying to be as breve as possible, football is a sport, it's main objective is to entertain and so the main criteria to define the best league in the world should be strictly focused on that.

Entertainment includes other factors that help a league be entertaining, as everyone else pointed out already players and overall teams are the ones that make a league entertaining or not. Competitiveness + quality (teams and players) is what makes a league entertaining. But then again, this is all subjective and anyone who is trying to demand objectivity is asking for something very hard to give regarding this topic. The best league in the world is the one where the overall quality of the teams and the competitiveness makes the regular football fan want to watch as many games as possible.

Now the completely subjective pov.

I definitely love EPL and hate La Liga. Basically because of the point i just stated, competitiveness and overall team quality. With that being said, I can only base my thoughts about EPL being the best on the single objective "fact" that more people around the world watch EPL thus it is generally more entertaining = better.

Simple enough?

Now, what would La Liga teams do if there was no CL? More specifically their fans. Watching La Liga regular season should be fine for the average fan who has a favorite team in that league but CL is what makes La Liga teams and fans desperately want to watch football. Im just saying EPL would do just fine without the CL in terms of entertaining, english teams would probably handle themselves just fine as well as fans because the league itself offers a level of entertainment that can be enjoyed by the majority of people around the world.
The only thing La Liga has to its favor is Barcelona. If it wasn't for Barcelona then the league would be just like a Bundesliga without Bayern or a slightly more decent Ligue 1. If you had a Catalan league that took Barcelona away from La Liga then they will become a regular decent league that could compete in entertainment and quality with lower tier leagues.

In the end, it is a matter of what league I like the most for certain reasons. I bet there are way more people that are fans of La Liga that watch EPL rather than the other way around. Ive actually been watching a lot more La Liga lately and still dont find it interesting at all, I watch RM games because of Navas and well, I wait 90+ minutes for the other team to attack only to get disappointed while Navas only plays the ball a couple of times with his feet. Obviously this is not the case for all the matches but certainly the majority.

We are obviously never going to end this debate because nobody is ever going to agree on this. It is as subjective as it gets. CL is there to settle each year which is the best team in the world, not exactly the best league but we should just keep watching whatever we like most.

@Sunflash Bayern are a class apart in the Bundesliga. If any team other than Barca, Madrids, Juventus (who are themselves a class apart in their leagues) manage to beat Bayern, it is a big achievement.
And that thing you said that winning first leg in group stage is irrelevent, no it is not. You can also see it as won one match and lost one match. It does not mean one team is better than the other.
What I am saying is that if you take out Bayern then the top 5-6 teams in EPL are better than those of Bundesliga.
Even if you see last year's Champions league and Europa League-
Arsenal against Dortmund - won 1 lost 1
Even man city managed against bayern - won 1 lost 1
Chelsea against schalke - won 1 draw 1
Everton against Wolfsburg - won 2
So you can see English teams just edging it.

I see your point, but I still disagree, because we're looking at it in different ways. You're seeing the individual fixtures, I'm seeing what they lead too. Example:

Arsenal and Dortmund split their games 2-0 result in each, Dortmund (despite being in relegation spot in the Bundesliga at this time) top the CL group ahead of Arsenal.

City vs Bayern...yes they won one lost one, but Bayern advances at City's expense, and that's what matters. Even though it wasn't a knockout round for United/Wolfsburg, it was a knockout game, where Wolfsburg advanced at United's expense which is why I chose to view it as such, much like the City/Bayern example.

Chelsea were FAR better than Schalke last year. No surprise, really.

Everton and Wolfsburg didn't play their first teams, so all that tells me is that the Everton reserve team is better than the Wolfsburg reserve team. You want to know who's the best reserve team in the BPL right now? Sunderland. That's a great reflection of the first team, no?

I understand what you're seeing, British teams getting results against German sides. But what I'm seeing is, for the most part, German teams eliminating British ones.

(Understanding that of course a team like Bayern will smack around Spurs/Liverpool type teams and Chelsea/City will smack around Schalke level teams).

Since 2012-13, English teams vs. Bundesliga/La Liga teams in the CL...

Arsenal 2-4 Schalke
City 1-2 Dortmund
City 3-4 Real Madrid
United 2-3 Real Madrid
Arsenal 3-3 Bayern
United 9-2 Leverkusen
United 2-1 Sociedad
City 4-5 Bayern
Chelsea 6-0 Schalke
Arsenal 2-2 Dortmund
Arsenal 1-3 Bayern
City 1-4 Barcelona
United 2-4 Bayern
Chelsea 1-3 Atletico
Liverpool 0-4 Real Madrid
Arsenal 2-2 Dortmund
City 3-3 Bayern
Chelsea 6-1 Schalke
City 1-3 Barcelona

Conclusion

English teams have won four out of 19 ties against La Liga and Bundesliga teams. That's a rate of 21%. In the cases where the English team won the tie, the team defeated was Schalke twice, Leverkusen once, and Sociedad once. None of these teams are notable for their strength...

Matter of fact, neither City nor Arsenal could manage to win a tie against German or Spanish opposition in the last three seasons. 21% win percentage in a tie isn't what you see from the best league in the world. Facts are facts, English teams have fallen off Europe's top stage. City look like the only likely representative in the quarter-finals for England this season.

@dynastian Yes facts are facts ...but ..

Look at the calibre of teams you listed vs EPL clubs . You trying to make a point with this ?! Really mate ..

Also as Chelsea fan that 3-1 against Atletico just never settled with me because me media and uefa bullied us to allow our goalie play against us and score doest not do justice to how close that match was actually . Could have gone either way .

Anyhow this debate will never die .

We EPL fans just let the times flow , and let money do the talking for us . Major networks don't mind sending big checks to EPL clubs so we just going sign another deal and move on to next season with a big smile on our face .

Take the money, and stay away from trophies :) deal accepted.

Dortmund 3-0 spurs... Well well...

Lol nobody has ever denied that Real Madrid & Barca are above every single Premier League team for the past 5 years. What ppl have denied is that having TWO best teams doesn't justify best league in the world. Nobody has denied that Bayern are above every single PL team either..

That's a rate of 21%. In the cases where the English team won the tie

Such a selective way to give out statistic lol. I'll just tell what happened with Arsenal.

Arsenal 2-4 Schalke (1 loss 1 draw) > Cock up in group stage
Arsenal 3-3 Bayern (1 win 1 loss) > Bayern are better
Arsenal 2-2 Dortmund (1 win 1 loss) > BVB were indeed at same level at the time, doesn't mean THE LEAGUE is better.
Arsenal 1-3 Bayern (1 loss 1 draw) > Bayern are better
Arsenal 2-2 Dortmund (1 win 1 loss) -||-
(you forgot this) Arsenal 3-5 Bayern (1 win 1 loss) > Bayern are simply better.

I'd say 2 wins out of 6 is pretty decent record given that Arsenal are not at Bayern's level.

Always been the same case, La Liga fans refer to 2 giants, when BPL fans refer to the level of the whole league.

Just like Real & Bayern have won against PL's top 4 team (Arsenal or Liverpool), PL's top 1 team (Chelsea or Man Utd) have ruined Leverkusen & Schalke.

Yeh, forgot to say that BVB (Bundesliga's top 2 team) was at the same level with Arsenal (PL's top 4 team).

what decent said^+1