saatvik10
9 years ago
@Dynastian I don't see other people giving "facts" as such to present their arguments. I see most of them are just giving their own opinion on which league is more physical, which has the better referees, which league has the best competition, etc.
I expressed my opinion, same as all others.
And btw, I never said EPL was the best, I said this makes a pretty good argument in EPL's favour. There can always be counterarguments. Thanks for providing one.
The best league in the world. What does that mean? How do you define that? How can you define that?
This question has been lurking in many of the discussions we've had on this forum recently, so we may as well bring it into the open. I recognize in advance that this topic rises the blood of many (not sure why), so do try to keep it civil in your responses.
Let's have facts and reason prevail over hot-headedness please.
That being said, let's begin.
How do you define "best league in the world?
There are many different ways to do this. Some common ones are:
1) The league that has the best players in the world
2) The league that has the most money in the world
3) The league that has the most competition in the world
4) The league that has the most competition for the title in the world
5) The league that has the most success in European competitions
6) The league that has the most demanding physical requirements
7) The league that is the most fun to watch/follow
I have no doubt you will use these and other methods to attempt to prove your respective league is the best, and then argue over which reason is most valid. To me, this is idiotic, so I will compare and contrast each league based off of every single above definition. Let's start small.
The argument for Serie A as the best league in the world
We have to start somewhere.
In definition 1, the best players in the world are referred too. So how does Serie A fit in there? If we use the FIFA 40-man shortlist (a terrible metric I know, but it works for this discussion) Serie A had 6 players on this list. However, they were all from a single club, Juventus. This somewhat limits the impact of this point, and while plenty of other very good players play in Serie A (Higuain, Pogba, Pjanic, Miranda, Hamsik, etc) they are all basically limited to Juventus and Napoli. Roma, the usual second team in the league for the past couple seasons, doesn't have a single player who it is possible to say is world-class. In addition, no Serie A player has won the Ballon d'or since Kaka in 2007.
Serie A fails by definition 1.
Definition 2 is not up for debate, simply fact. Serie A makes a nice chunk of money, and its owners are well-off, they have decent TV deals, but they are not on the level of Spain and England.
Serie A fails by definition 2.
Definition 3, most competition, don't make me laugh. Although there is a slight possibly Juventus won't win the league this year, they still probably will, and that will make it 5 straight league titles. In addition, the difference in points from first place to last place in Serie A is almost always the largest in all of Europe. Awful.
Serie A fails by definition 3.
Definition 4, competition for the title, just went over that.
Serie A fails by definition 4.
Definition 5, the most success in Europe, is an interesting one. The simple fact that Italy does not have 4 champions league spots, speaks volumes. In addition, because Lazio lost to Bayer in the playoff, only two teams, Juventus and Roma, made it to the CL this season. Of course, last season, Juventus were runners-up, and this season, both teams have made it to the round of 16. However, neither may see the quarter-finals, after getting drawn against Bayern and Real Madrid. Clearly, there is a long way to go for Serie A in Europe, although that is no fault of Juventus.
Serie A fails by definition 5.
Definition 6, the league that has the most demanding physical requirements, is interesting as well. England likes to talk about how physical their league is, but it is not ever close to Serie A, who have more red and yellow cards than any other European league. These are not soft cards either. Diving as it happens in England and Spain in particular is often shunned in Italy, whose national team and overall character is that of a defensive powerhouse. Much of this is opinion, but I'll give Serie A this ahead of the BPL.
Serie A meets the requirement of definition 6.
Definition 7, regarding how enjoyable it is to follow the league, I cannot speak for directly, as I do not watch Serie A. However, boring title challenges are boring. I had hope for it this season, but it now looks like Juventus again. In addition, Serie A has a reputation for being defensively focused and boring, but Shpalman did a convincing argument on that here:
http://footyroom.com/forum/football-talk/serie-a-the-most-boring-league-in-europe-think-again-69980?p=69980
However, the usual lack of a title challenge, coupled with most of the league consisting of lower quality players, means that I can't say Serie A is the best in the world for entertainment value.
Serie A fails by definition 7.
Total points for Serie A 1/7.
The argument for the Bundesliga as the best league in the world
No disrespect to Serie A, but this is where it beings to get interesting, as all the remaining leagues I will be looking at have all of their European spots.
Definition 1, regarding the best players in the world, meets an interesting case in the Bundesliga. On the FIFA 40-man shortlist, the Bundesliga has eight players, (nine technically, if you count De Bruyne). Six of those players are Bayern players, which is fair enough. Other players who come to mind that weren't on the list are Reus, Aubameyang, Hummels, Naldo, Draxler, Chicharito, Robben, Ribery,Douglas Costa, etc. Another aspect to think about is the German national team, who won the world cup primarily with Bundesliga players, with a couple non-major exceptions (remember Kroos did play for Bayern at the time). It certainly gives the Bundesliga a good argument for this definition. I will give them a half point for this, and elaborate why in the conclusion.
Bundesliga partially succeeds the requirements of definition 1.
Definition 2, or the most money, clearly is not won by the Bundesliga. Bayern has lots of money, and Wolfsburg splash around a bit, but I'm fairly certain they spend less than Italy (although I can't find the number to prove that).
The Bundesliga fails by definition 2.
Definition 3, or the most competition, is an interesting one. Really what is being examined here is the overall level of teams in the division. It is hard to directly compare the level of one leagues 10th place team to another leagues 10th place team, so I'll work with the metrics I have, with the help of one tiki-taka:
I think that this is a very convincing point. Bayern is MILES ahead of the rest of the Bundesliga, so it is unfair to use Bayern as the measuring stick for the rest of the league, who have proven their worth when they play other leagues. Good example of that this season is Bayer (4th in the league) knocking Lazio (3rd in Serie A) out of the CL qualifying, or Wolfsburg (2nd) preventing Manchester United (4th) from advancing to the CL knockouts, or Dortmund (7th) smacking around Porto. With the exception of Bayern, the rest of the league is more competitive than any other league.
The Bundesliga succeeds in meeting definition 3.
Competition for a title? Find another league.
The Bundesliga horribly fails to meet the requirements of definition 4.
Definition 5, or the European success, has a case. In 2013, the CL was decided between Bayern and Dortmund. The Bundesliga has been represented in every semi-final since. However, with 2013 being a solitary exception, Bundesliga has played second fiddle to La Liga in both the CL and EL.
The Bundesliga fails by definition 5.
Definition 6, or physical requirements, the Bundesliga is pretty good. A nice winter break, coupled by solid officiating, and a desire to play good-looking football makes Bundesliga tough, but not near the level of Serie A.
The Bundesliga fails by definition 6.
Definition 7, as I've said already, is a matter of opinion. What is fun to watch/follow can vary from person to person. I do watch many Bundesliga games, and I can't say it's ever been depressing. That being said, like Serie A, the lack of a real title race kills the overall vibe of the league. If Bayern weakens, or a challenger to their dominance arises, this conversation could be very different.
The Bundesliga fails by definition 7.
Total points for the Bundesliga: 1 1/2
The argument for La Liga as the best league in the world
Here we go.
Definition 1, the best players in the world, I gave half a point to the Bundesliga because I feel that across their entire league, they have the best players. However, in terms of the best players in the world regardless of team distribution, this is not something that is up for debate. Led by Ronaldo and Messi, the squads of Barcelona and Real Madrid are full of the best players that the world has to offer. Other strong squads such as Ath Madrid, Valencia, and Sevilla also contain world-class players. I don't need to name them, you already know.
La Liga succeeds in meeting the requirements of definition 1.
Definition 2, or the most money in the world, I am going to divvy up. Barcelona and Real Madrid throw around so much money, not only in huge transfer fees (Neymar, Bale), but also stupid ones (Danilo), but it has the biggest wages that the world sees. Although watch out, China is coming for your wages.
La Liga partially meets the requirements of definition 2. The spread of wealth does not exist, but Barca and Madrid make up for that.
Definition 3, or the most competition in the world, is hardly worthy of a spot when it comes to La Liga at first glance. The domination of Barca and Real (10-2 anyone) really hurts any illusion that competition is happening. But much like the Bundesliga, I think that the elites need to be ignored for once. How do the rest of the teams stack up? It's still pretty meh. Sevilla and Valencia get results, with Athletico hanging in there, but the rest of the league has no money, and when they do, they don't spend it wisely. I do think that some of the TV deals need to cut out Barca and Madrid for the rest of the league to get better, but who sees that happening?
La Liga fails by definition 3.
Definition 4, or the title competition, again has a case. The competition between Barca and Madrid is exactly what the Bundesliga lacks. Athletico winning the title recently makes this a very good conversation. La Liga would win this definition, if it wasn't for the crazy title challenges in the BPL.
La Liga fails by definition 4.
Definition 5, or the most success in European competitions is the easiest point in this thread. Who won the CL and EL last year? Barcelona and Sevilla. Who played the CL final the year before? Both Madrids. RIP non-Spainish teams in European competition.
La Liga blatantly struts to win definition 5.
Definition 6, or physical requirements, well....yeah. La Liga players playing in Serie A with that diving would be the love-child between WWE and American football. I'd watch it. With popcorn.
La Liga fails by definition 6.
Definition 7, or the league that is most fun to watch/follow...is again a matter of opinion. I can only speak for myself here. I really enjoy watching the best players in the world, that La Liga has. Watching the Barca-Madrid game is just a rule. However, watching Barca/Madrid play anyone else is 95% likely to be super boring. 10 goals in a game just shouldn't be allowed.
I'll give La Liga a half point for this, because I understand that many people like watching the best players in the world.
Total La Liga points: 3/7
The argument for the BPL as the best league in the world
Definition 1, or best players in the world. On the FIFA 40-man shortlist, there are 4 BPL players, Hart, Aguero, Hazard, and Sanchez. Of those players, only Aguero would walk into any team's starting 11. That speaks volumes for me. I would rather have any of the Bayern/Barca/Madrid squads than a squad composed of any BPL players I wanted.
The BPL fails by definition 1.
Definition 2, or most money. Yes, the BPL has the most money. Actually, they probably don't, it's probably China. Or will be soon. Who knows. What I do know, is that the BPL is completely retarded when it comes to spending its money. United, Liverpool, and Chelsea spend metric fucktons and still won't make the CL. City's oil money can't get them titles ahead of Leicester. Arsenal refuses to spend theirs. What's the point of having money if you can't use it properly?
The BPL doesn't get a full point because of its incompetence. Still, they have tons of money, so they get a half point.
Definition 3, or most competition in the world, I already gave to the Bundesliga. I will, again, elaborate more about this in my conclusion, as it will no doubt tick off BPL fans.
The BPL fails by definition 3.
Definition 4, competition at the top. Look, when we're this far into the season and Leicester are on top, followed by a team that hasn't won in my lifetime, followed by a team that hasn't won in over a decade, followed by a team that's only won the thing twice ever, yeah, this is not even an argument.
The BPL succeeds by definition 4. Seriously, what happened at the top this year?
Definition 5, or the success in Europe...well...let's just say when City is your best chance to win something in Europe, your league probably sucks. I know Chelsea won awhile ago, but that entire team is basically gone. I mean, Terry and Ivanovic are still there, so that a plus (or minus) right? Seriously, Terry/Ivanovic/Cahill/Mikel are the only players left from that team. So don't give me that.
The BPL fails by definition 5.
Definition 6, or demanding physical requirements, is something that is usually trumpeted by BPL supporters. I would've been behind you guys for this point, but the BPL had to let law 18 in. More on that here:
http://footyroom.com/forum/football-talk/understanding-law-18-73953
Look, the LVG falling down in front of the forth official to protest Arsenal's diving was funny and all, but to me it reflected that you can actually get away with that the BPL now. Italy is way more physical, and it's not even close.
The BPL fails by definition 6.
Definition 7, or the league that is the most fun to watch/follow. I am fully behind the BPL on this one. You can watch any game, ANY game, and have no idea how it's going to end. Bornemouth beat United. Last year's dumpster fire will probably be this years champions. Norwich beat United. The game of the season involved Everton. Sunderland beat United. Last year's champions won't qualify for the CL, probably. Southampton beat United. You get the idea. (United beat Arsenal. Had to stick that last one in).
The BPL runs away with definition 7.
Total points for BPL: 2 1/2/7
Final standings:
La Liga: 3
BPL: 2 1/2
Bundesliga: 1 1/2
Serie A: 1
To conclude, I can already see some of the arguments, so let's touch on them before they even happen.
Why did you give the Bundesliga props ahead of the BPL for most competitive?
It's a pretty simple path of logic. The MLS is super competitive, but no one cares because the quality is so low. Therefore it can be concluded that competition only matters when it is going on at a high enough level. The level of play in the Bundesliga is simply higher than the BPL. Bayern miles better than any other BPL or Bundesliga side, but once you get past them, overall, the Wolfsburgs, Bayers, Dortmunds, Gladbachs, and Berlins of the world are simply better than the Liverpools, Uniteds, Arsenals, and Chelsea's of the world. This means that not only does competition happen in the Bundesliga, it happens at a higher level than in England.
Before I hear any of the "Liverpool isn't as good as Gladbach are you nuts!" arguments, keep in mind I've been hearing them for years. And when German teams play British teams, or Italian teams, or Portuguese teams, or anyone except the top level of Spain, really, they win. And since Europe (and international play) is the only metric I have, and it's logical to use it, the facts say Germany's upper table and mid-table clubs are simply better than Britain's. I can't compare the lower ones, obviously, but if Newcastle were to play Hannover, I don't think they'd win. That, of course, is my opinion, unlike the middle and upper tables.
I value X definition over X definition so this whole thread is worthless
Fine, go ahead. I just took all the arguments and lumped them together to create a conclusion. If you want to cherry-pick what I'm saying, whatever makes you happy.
So you think La Liga is the best league in the world right now?
Yes, I do. And I think the BPL needs to watch its back, because the Bundesliga is probably better as well. Having money to spend on players doesn't mean that your team is better than theirs. It should help, but it's not, because the people who are bringing in players for far more than they are worth are idiots.
I'm kind of intrigued to know how the community will receive this. And I swear, read the whole thing before you comment.