I rarely make threads, as you lot know, but I wanted to make this one to help you guys understand how I perceive the definition of the term "world-class." This definition has gotten me into a lot of heated discussions with people who have a different interpretation.

I consider "world-class" to be a combination of four sides of eleven that all shape up in this formation:

------------------------------GK---------------------
RB/RWB---------CB-----------CB--------LB/LWB
RM/RW-----CM/CDM----CM/CAM-----LM/LW
--------------------ST/CF-----ST/CF---------------

They go as follows, best 11 one, best 11 two, best 11 three, and best youth team (e.g. 23 and younger).

Any player that makes it into one of these sides, irrelevant of which one it is, I consider to be world-class. Basketball and the NBA do something similar with their 1st/2nd/3rd team all-stars, and I have always regarded it as the standard for the elite level of a sport. I encourage you guys to share your sides in this thread, to help me understand how this forum and its members generally regard the best players in the game. Try to avoid trolling if at all possible, because I want to take the players and rate them based off of your posts, so the more people that participate, the better.

Side One:

------------------------------Buffon---------------------
Carvajal---------Chiellini---------Ramos--------Marcelo
Messi-----Vidal----Modric-----Ronaldo
--------------------Suarez-----Lewandowski---------------

Side Two:

------------------------------De Gea---------------------
Juanfran---------Hummels------Godin--------Sandro
Bale-----Verratti----Kroos-----Neymar
--------------------Griezmann-----Higuian---------------

Side Three:

------------------------------Neuer---------------------
Florenzi-------Alderweield-------Bonnuci--------Alaba
De Bruyne/Sanchez-----Pjanic----Pogba-----Hazard
--------------------Kane-----Lukaku---------------

Youth Side:

------------------------------Donnarumma---------------------
Kimmich---------Sule-----------Varane--------Bellerin
Sane-----Saul---Asensio-----Alli
--------------------Dyabla-----Rashford---------------

It's a fair bit of work, I know, but I'd appreciate if you gave it a shot for my data purposes.

Also, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to put my thoughts here, but there's no harm in that so check it out. I make a distinction between a world-class player and a world class (insert position). For example, A prime Karim Benzema wouldn't be considered a world class striker, BUT in my opinion, you can say he was a world class player. We can also say that Harry Kane is a world class striker but is not a world class player.

Let me explain.

A world class player can do it all: Score, pass, dribble, provides help at the back, is an aerial threat from set pieces, and can complement his team well. Meanwhile, a world class ____ can do his job so well that hardly anyone will disagree that he's "world class"

The problem with my thinking is that it may sound pointless to even break it down to that extent. The reason why I do this is that it makes it easier for me to determine who's the better player.

That's why for example I will always take Luis Suarez over Lewandowski. It's whatevs tho

Edit: I value players who can fit in both categories more btw (Such as Messi, Ronaldo, Suarez, etc)

Also, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to put my thoughts here, but there's no harm in that so check it out.

Course you can, this isn't a dictatorship lol

I understand what you're saying, I honestly do. You break up the game into facets so that a player who is at the top level of many facets can be called world-class. I agree with the principal, but take issues with it in practice. Using Fellaini for example, probably among the best headers of a ball, best chest control, best midfield punishment. Likely top of the world in three catagories - likely won't get a sniff of the starting eleven because of his shortcomings everywhere else.

However, using your example of Benzema and Kane, Lodatz and I discussed Kane at length last season, and during that time I took the position that Kane was not a world-class player, and I held your general chain of thought. Not entirely due to that discussion, but also due to simply watching Kane play more, I can to realize that, yes, Harry Kane is not the top of the food chain in terms of dribbling, finishing, ariel threat, whatever. It's very hard to look at Kane's game and point to where exactly he excels. But what Lodatz made me realize is that that honestly doesn't matter, because he does his job more efficiently than anyone in the EPL and 99% of the strikers in Europe. Benezema is not the focus of Madrid, and always participates in slick passing movements, clinical finishing, and general awesomeness. Kane lumbers around the field, often appearing to do nothing, yet at the end of the day in terms of goals, assists, times fouled, conversion rate, literally any metric you want, he does the job better than Benzema. I've learned to value that.

The official dictionary definition of world-class is as follows: "a person, thing, or activity - of or among the best in the world"

I partially blame the commentator reaction to moves by reaching for whatever the top level word is, that asshole on beIN sports is literally the sole cause of the general bullsh*t today, but fans aren't immune to it either. Saying that x player looked like a world-class player in x-instance does not make him world class. If he was, he'd be doing it all of the time. And just because is pretty doesn't make it world-class either. As far as the game of soccer is concerned, Asencio's tap-in in the UCL final was just as effective as his long shot versus Barcelona. Which type of goal do you think he'll get the opportunity to score more often? Do we just value aesthetics, or the actual, practical purpose of this game? If players just always took shots from 35 yards out, they would score less than 1% of the time. So yes, it's cool when someone does it, but it isn't a recipe for success. The ugly things no one wants to talk about are usually the most important. Sprinting 40-odd yards to be in the box just in case the ball ends up coming to you more by chance than anything else? THAT - is a recipe for success.

If a player is effective in their position, more so than than another individual, I consider player one to be superior. And that's really all there is to it regarding my perspective.

Prime Benzema was insane. He was considered to be one of the top strikers in the world even though he had to share goal-scoring duties with Higuain and Ronaldo.

The best I've ever seen Higuain was in 2009-10 where he exploded for 27 goals in the league. Imagine if that disc injury never happened and he kept his pace and he was the main goal-threat on the team? It wouldn't have taken him 29 years of age to break the 30-goal barrier. Same can be said with Benzema, although he never sustained career-threatening injuries like Ronaldo and Higuain.

Several years ago Benzema would've made it into my side. Not anymore though, and I gather from your comment that you understand the reasoning behind it.

Course you can, this isn't a dictatorship lol

Haha I know bro I was just messing around. And I do agree with several points that just made.

About Fellaini though, I never really considered him to be great, let alone world class. Even in his day at Everton when he was actually really useful I didn't think so highly of him. For me, a world class player can do it all, and should be at least good in all of the categories. Fellaini may be good in 3 but that's not so complete.

Let me give you a story to tell you how i feel. About a year ago, the charger for my laptop disappeared. After 2 weeks of looking, I thought it was time to give up and get a new one. I found a universal charger at the store that had a case of different head things idk what u call them. I asked myself why not? I can use it for my laptop and my brothers can use it as well. I was able to use it but it was really loose. 3 weeks later I found my charger again and now don't even bother with that universal charger.

That, we can look at as a comparison between Fellaini and Kroos. Fellaini is bigger, stronger, more athletic, etc. But Kroos is a specialist with the ball, he has an impeccable vision and can create from nothing. In 90% of the times I'll go with the specialist.

What if I found a better universal charger tho? One that can match my original charger in quality, and isn't loose like the 35 bucks universal charger I got? I'll get it in a heart beat.

Who would I take between prime Toure and Kante? Toure for many reasons that Kante can't help in. What about Ramos vs Godin? Kane or Suarez?

There's nothing wrong with a Kante, or a Kane, or Kroos, or any other specailist out there. There all great for me. They'd fit in perfectly 15-20 years ago. Players like Ronaldo De Lima, Ronaldinho and Kaka, Messi and Cristaino, all of them are known for doing multiple things very well. With the evolution of the game, sometimes it is required to have other skills as well.

I understand why someone would find this way of thinking weird or unorthodox. I get it. But to be honest, it helps me find out who's better as a LAST resort. I don't always take world class players over world class position, like I said I'd take the specialist most of the time. But when it's a really close one, like Suarez/Lewa then I look who brings more to the table other than goal scoring.

Oh and Roy Hudson IS indeed an A$$.

We can also say that Harry Kane is a world class striker but is not a world class player.

Hmm.

A world class player can do it all: Score, pass, dribble, provides help at the back, is an aerial threat from set pieces, and can complement his team well.

You just basically described Harry Kane.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your definitions, but I think you've put Kane into the wrong box. ;)

With the evolution of the game, sometimes it is required to have other skills as well.

I agree, which is why so many of the new generation of strikers, such as Kane, are so good at so many things. Kane, for instance, is a fantastic passer of the ball, dribbles excellently, scores all manner of goals (including with his head), is great at helping defensively, and we all know he knows how to score.

Lukaku is another example of this new breed. He pretty much has it all too (except maybe the defensive side), yet for some reason there's a myth going around that he has a poor first touch. Maybe he just wasn't playing in a famous enough shirt for people to recognize how good he is. Ah well.

I understand why someone would find this way of thinking weird or unorthodox. I get it.

Personally, I think it makes sense. For instance, Modric is a world class CM, but not a world class player. Varane is a world class defender, but not a world class player. Same with Marcelo, etc. I'd even say Benzema too, since he's not known for being a world class player, but you've already said you rate him as one so I guess we don't agree.

@Lodatz I'm judging him based on the amount of times I've seen him especially during the international matches (Which to be honest isn't fair at all lol) so I'll trust your judgment on him since you see the guy play every week.

Big Benz was a world class player. The last time he was world class would probably be the 13/14 season, but as far as the present, he is a shell of his old self.

Check out his defensive performance against Barcelona last week.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/ManagingMadrid/videos/?ref=page_internal

There's another angle to the discussion of World Class, and to illustrate it I offer up:

Sergio Busquets.

I know, I know. Most of you probably think he's world class. I never have, and I still do not.

That's not to say that I think he's not a great player. Of course he is, but the debate surrounding whether or not he's world class has always come down to the fact that he's a one club player, and that club has a very specific system of play.

He's perfect for Barcelona. He's exactly what they have needed to make them tick, and of course he was part of Spain's victorious team in 2010 and 2012, when they were essentially playing as Barcelona anyway. There was a time when this ruled the kingdom of football, and he rightly deserves to be hailed for winning all those things, alongside players like Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Pique, Villa, Suarez and Neymar.

But. He's never played outside of that system, nor was he the most vital part of it. What he does is perform a specific role extremely well, and with an extremely talent squad around him which has been taught to feed off that role, success came and they were the best team in the world, no question.

That time is no more (though if anyone thinks Barcelona are weak right now just because Madrid are so incredible, then I offer my usual caution about the season being long). Neither Spain nor Barca are top dog any longer, and part of that I think is down to the system being sluggish and perhaps a little out-dated. That's especially worrying for someone like Busquets, whose play is reliant upon that system, and his role within it.

Perhaps while Barcelona are looking to replace Neymar, they might want to also think about changing the personnel in their midfield also. Busquets has been great, but I don't think he's ever been the type of player to actually elevate the team with his talent, in the way that so many of their other stars can, and while we cannot be sure since he's always been at Barca, I still have deep suspicions about his ability to find his usual form anywhere outside of the Camp Nou.

Hence, to me, not world class. I know that's controversial, but there it is.

Cool thread btw.

@Madrista: Oh, I've no doubt Benz is still awesome. I did see his contributions defensively, yes, and I'm glad he added that to his game. I recall when Mourinho was coach there was a big argument within the squad because Mou wanted them to get more defensively sound as a whole team.

Maybe Benz was one of the players who learned most from the old fox!

Well here are mine first 2 teams, I keep the youth team from the previous page:

Personally, I think it makes sense. For instance, Modric is a world class CM, but not a world class player. Varane is a world class defender, but not a world class player. Same with Marcelo, etc.

By the same logic, wouldn't you have to classify Xavi as not being a 'world-class player'? I understand @Madridista11's viewpoint, but I disagree with the notion of Kane, Kroos, Modric, and Marcelo not being world-class players.

Sometimes, a player is just so bloody good at specific tasks where they just open up a new dimension on the pitch. Xavi, Pirlo, Modric, Iniesta are such players. They usually can't do anything except for creating plays and occasionally dribbling, but they're just too damn good at what they do to be considered inferior to multi-talented midfielders like Toure or Seedorf.

I do believe, however, that you hit the nail on the coffin with Busquets. Busquets is definitely a specialized player, but not good enough to really take Barcelona (or any other team) to a higher level. His ability to sit high up the pitch and distribute well in short distances was just extremely convenient to cover up the holes in Barcelona's tiki-taka style. I'm sure all of us would take a prime Toure over Busquets, but Busquets frankly presented a far better convenience for Barcelona than Toure.

Sometimes, a player is just so bloody good at specific tasks where they just open up a new dimension on the pitch. Xavi, Pirlo, Modric, Iniesta are such players. They usually can't do anything except for creating plays and occasionally dribbling, but they're just too damn good at what they do to be considered inferior to multi-talented midfielders like Toure or Seedorf.

I agree entirely with this point. If a player performs their role to a higher degree than another player in their position, regardless if they are inferior in certain aspects, I see them as being superior. As I said earlier:

If a player is effective in their position, more so than than another individual, I consider player one to be superior. And that's really all there is to it regarding my perspective.

Pirlo will never be fast or tackle hard. That doesn't make prime Pirlo worse than prime Kante. It's the overarching degree to which they fulfill their role in their position on the pitch for the overall result/benefit of their team that to me is what makes one individual better than another.

Good to see you around again Lodatz, was kind of hoping this thread would draw you out.

Busquets is definitely a specialized player, but not good enough to really take Barcelona (or any other team) to a higher level.

We can't be sure of that.

And to add, I put Kanté in my first team and Casemiro in second, there is no doubt that Busquets is a world class player at his position and for what he does so no need to bash him.

Pick 1:

--------------------Neuer---------------------
Carvajal-Chiellini-Hummels-Marcelo
-----------Modric-Thiago-Kroos----------
---------Messi-Ronaldo-Neymar--------

Pick 2:

----------------Oblak-----------------
Alves-Ramos-Bonucci-Sandro
-----Vidal-de Bruyne-Verratti-----
Robben-Lewandowski-Hazard

Pick 3:

----------------de Gea----------------
Piszczek-Godin-Boateng-Alaba
---------Eriksen-Ozil-Isco----------
------Ribery-Suarez-Sanchez-----

U23:

Donnarumma
Kimmich-Marquinhos-Sule/Umtiti-Mendy
Fabinho-Alli-Saul
Mbappe-Belotti-Jesus (idek)

@Croatian I'm so impressed by Süle! He is a real monster, already scored a header and was so good in Confederations Cup.

There is what i think to be the best XI world class, i just have hesitation about de DM
Who do you think is actually for world class than Vidal?

4-3-3 with 1 CDM

Neuer
D.Alves - Bonucci - S.Ramos - Marcelo
Modric - Vidal - Kross
Messi - C.ronaldo - Neymar Jr

@Golazo, our future legend but I'd be glad if we moved Javi to midfield so he can have more chances... we can put Javi back if injuries occur.