So, I was taking a look at the current Top 6 of the Premier League, and I decided to go find out how they've actually been faring against just each other; I figured it would be fun to compare to actual league position, so here goes:

Here are the results of the Top 6 mini-table, for 2016/17 only:

As we can see, it looks rather similar to how the league table itself looks right now, which is:

Obviously Chelsea and Tottenham have one game extra over the others, but it's still pretty stable, and pretty close. Liverpool have been outstanding against their direct rivals, whereas everyone else has had mixed fortunes -- very competitive indeed!

But then I wondered: how does this pan out in a longer period? Say, if I were to include last season's results too, and see if anything changes in the hierarchy? Well, let's take a look:

It's... virtually identical. The only real change/surprise is how well United did against the others last year. But, isn't it also interesting that all 3 of the top teams in that mini-table... failed to even make the Top 4 last season. So, clearly that dominance did NOT translate into true league position, last season.

So what's made the difference? Can we say that the largest chunk is the lack of European football, since all 3 teams did have CL and/or EL campaigns last season, and only United has it this year (and is correspondingly 6th)? Or is there more going on?

Discuss.

So, I was taking a look at the current Top 6 of the Premier League, and I decided to go find out how they've actually been faring against just each other; I figured it would be fun to compare to actual league position, so here goes:

Here are the results of the Top 6 mini-table, for 2016/17 only:

As we can see, it looks rather similar to how the league table itself looks right now, which is:

Obviously Chelsea and Tottenham have one game extra over the others, but it's still pretty stable, and pretty close. Liverpool have been outstanding against their direct rivals, whereas everyone else has had mixed fortunes -- very competitive indeed!

But then I wondered: how does this pan out in a longer period? Say, if I were to include last season's results too, and see if anything changes in the hierarchy? Well, let's take a look:

It's... pretty close to the first, and pretty tight. The only real changes/surprises is how well United did against the others last year, and how poorly City did. But, isn't it also interesting that all 3 of the top teams in that mini-table... failed to even make the Top 4 last season. So, clearly that dominance did NOT translate into true league position, last season.

So what's made the difference? Can we say that the largest chunk is the lack of European football, since all 3 teams did have CL and/or EL campaigns last season, and only United has it this year (and is correspondingly 6th)? Or is there more going on?

Discuss.

So, I was taking a look at the current Top 6 of the Premier League, and I decided to go find out how they've actually been faring against just each other; I figured it would be fun to compare to actual league position, so here goes:

Here are the results of the Top 6 mini-table, for 2016/17 only:

As we can see, it looks rather similar to how the league table itself looks right now, which is:

Obviously Chelsea and Tottenham have one game extra over the others, but it's still pretty stable, and pretty close. Liverpool have been outstanding against their direct rivals, whereas everyone else has had mixed fortunes -- very competitive indeed!

But then I wondered: how does this pan out in a longer period? Say, if I were to include last season's results too, and see if anything changes in the hierarchy? Well, let's take a look:

It's... pretty close to the first, and pretty tight. The only real changes/surprises is how well United did against the others last year, and how poorly City did. But, isn't it also interesting that all 3 of the top teams in that mini-table... failed to even make the Top 4 last season. So, clearly that dominance did NOT translate into true league position, last season.

Liverpool came 7th, despite this prowess against their rivals, so clarly they were not performing so well against teams down the rest of the table. Have they learned something new this season, which is helping them, or is it the lack of European football to distract them from avoiding losses to the strong teams in the bottom half of the table?

What about Chelsea? How much of it is down to a new system under Conte? How much of it again is due to having no distractions in Europe, allowing them to field their first XI more often against smaller teams? Or is there something else going on?

United have had EL action both seasons, and remained in roughly the same place. Is this coincidence? Will the second half of the season run along the same lines as this first?

Discuss.

Just thought, too: next week of Prem fixtures will bring us United vs Liverpool.

Who know how that could affect the mini-table(s), as well as the main table, if City, Arsenal and Spurs all win their games against lower-table teams?

If United lose, they fall off the pace considerably. If Liverpool lose, they could fall from 2nd to 5th, and might still fall to 3rd even if a draw!

Exciting stuff. :)

Just thought, too: next week of Prem fixtures will bring us United vs Liverpool.

Who knows how that could affect the mini-table(s), as well as the main table, if City, Arsenal and Spurs all win their games against lower-table teams?

If United lose, they fall off the pace considerably. If Liverpool lose, they could fall from 2nd to 5th, and might still fall to 3rd even if a draw!

Exciting stuff. :)

Just thought, too: next week of Prem fixtures will bring us United vs Liverpool.

Who knows how that could affect the mini-table(s), as well as the main table, if City, Arsenal and Spurs all win their games against Everton, West Brom and Swansea, respectively?

If United lose, they fall off the pace considerably. If Liverpool lose, they could fall from 2nd to 5th, and might still fall to 3rd even if a draw.

Spurs could go 2nd, Arsenal could be right back into 3rd... it's all to play for!

Exciting stuff. :)

Just thought, too: next week of Prem fixtures will bring us United vs Liverpool.

Who knows how that could affect the mini-table(s), as well as the main table, if City, Arsenal and Spurs all win their games against Everton, Swansea and West Brom, respectively?

If United lose, they fall off the pace considerably. If Liverpool lose, they could fall from 2nd to 5th, and might still fall to 3rd even if a draw.

Spurs could go 2nd, Arsenal could be right back into 3rd... it's all to play for!

Exciting stuff. :)

Just thought, too: next week of Prem fixtures will bring us United vs Liverpool.

Who knows how that could affect the mini-table(s), as well as the main table, if City, Arsenal and Spurs all win their games against Everton, Swansea and West Brom, respectively?

If United lose, they fall off the pace considerably. If Liverpool lose, they could fall from 2nd to 5th, and might still fall to 3rd even if a draw.

Both Spurs or Arsenal could go 2nd... it's all to play for!

Exciting stuff. :)

It's even useful to then look at each team individually, and see how they've been performing against the rest of the league. Remove the stats from the mini-table and we see an interesting picture. For instance:

Here, we can really see how Chelsea's domination of the 'lower' teams is the main prop for their title challenge, while their rivals keep on dropping points in the same places.

It's even useful to then look at each team individually, and see how they've been performing against the rest of the league. Remove the stats from the mini-table and we see an interesting picture. For instance:

Here, we can really see how Chelsea's domination of the 'lower' teams is the main prop for their title challenge, while their rivals keep on dropping points in the same places.

Why are City so shit against the top of the EPL, and yet the only EPL who has actually competed with/beaten other European giants recently.

If we ignore the City results of last year, the last time a British team knocked out any of those teams you listed was Chelsea eking past PSG on away goals in 13-14.

...which still qualifies, and you're now cherry-picking to ignore the group stage wins. Why is that? Is it because the full breadth of the facts contradicts your argument?

With the exceptions of that instance and City last season, that is the only time any of the teams you listed (not to mention Barca/RM/Juve) were knocked out by an EPL team

Well, considering that BVB have not played a single PL team in the knock-out rounds, that's a pretty cheap distortion of the facts, and once again you are cherry-picking to count only the results you want to count. I thought you liked facts?

And of all the big clubs, you'd have to say PSG is the weakest. That is the only major clubs knocked out by British clubs since Chelsea's 2011-12 victory. It's 2017 now. It's been awhile."

Because they keep on coming up against Barcelona, who defeat them, or Bayern, who scrape by on the away goal rule. Did you miss that part? Once again you are distorting the data to remove any context that works against you.

Sheesh.

While some of those group stage wins that are included in your results were big for the British teams, they didn't really have an impact on the big Euro teams, who usually went through first in their group regardless

But not always, which was, uh, the point. Like when Arsenal finished above Dortmund and City finished above Bayern, which negates your point.

and on many occasions fielded weaker squads because they didn't have to win.

Ah, now you're just switching outright to excuses.

I say EPL because that's the name of the league.

No, it's not. It's called the Premier League. Do you call La Liga BBVA, since there are other La Liga's out there?

Besides, you said yourself, there are other premier leagues out there.

Is the Russian league relevant to practically any discussion of 'the leagues'? No, I didn't think so, which means there is, 98% of the time, only one Premier League that anyone is referring to.

If we ignore the City results of last year, the last time a British team knocked out any of those teams you listed was Chelsea eking past PSG on away goals in 13-14.

...which still qualifies, and you're now cherry-picking to ignore the group stage wins. Why is that? Why are you spoiling a perfectly good thread about the PL Top 6 by trying to imply something which is not true, and then dney the evidence which shows it to be not true?

With the exceptions of that instance and City last season, that is the only time any of the teams you listed (not to mention Barca/RM/Juve) were knocked out by an EPL team

Well, considering that BVB have not played a single PL team in the knock-out rounds, that's a pretty cheap distortion of the facts, and once again you are cherry-picking to count only the results you want to count. Why?

And of all the big clubs, you'd have to say PSG is the weakest. That is the only major clubs knocked out by British clubs since Chelsea's 2011-12 victory. It's 2017 now. It's been awhile."

Because they keep on coming up against Barcelona, who defeat them, or Bayern, who scrape by on the away goal rule. Did you miss that part? Once again this seems like you are distorting the data to remove any context which demonstrates and proves that PL teams have been competing with and beating top teams from Europe.

Sheesh.

While some of those group stage wins that are included in your results were big for the British teams, they didn't really have an impact on the big Euro teams, who usually went through first in their group regardless

But not always, which was, uh, the point. Like when Arsenal finished above Dortmund and City finished above Bayern, which negates your point.

and on many occasions fielded weaker squads because they didn't have to win.

Ah, now you're just switching outright to excuses.

I say EPL because that's the name of the league.

No, it's not. It's called the Premier League. Do you call La Liga BBVA, since there are other La Liga's out there?

Besides, you said yourself, there are other premier leagues out there.

Is the Russian league relevant to practically any discussion of 'the leagues'? No, I didn't think so, which means there is, 98% of the time, only one Premier League that anyone is referring to.

If we ignore the City results of last year, the last time a British team knocked out any of those teams you listed was Chelsea eking past PSG on away goals in 13-14.

...which still qualifies, and you're now cherry-picking to ignore the group stage wins. Why is that?

With the exceptions of that instance and City last season, that is the only time any of the teams you listed (not to mention Barca/RM/Juve) were knocked out by an EPL team

Well, considering that BVB have not played a single PL team in the knock-out rounds, that's a pretty cheap distortion of the facts, and once again you are cherry-picking to count only the results you want to count. Why? I have to say, Sunny, that it seems once again as though you're simply trying to argue that the PL has been 'weak' when in fact it has not.

And of all the big clubs, you'd have to say PSG is the weakest. That is the only major clubs knocked out by British clubs since Chelsea's 2011-12 victory. It's 2017 now. It's been awhile."

Because they keep on coming up against Barcelona, who defeat them, or Bayern, who scrape by on the away goal rule. Did you miss that part? Once again this seems like you are distorting the data to remove any context which demonstrates and proves that PL teams have been competing with and beating top teams from Europe.

Sheesh.

While some of those group stage wins that are included in your results were big for the British teams, they didn't really have an impact on the big Euro teams, who usually went through first in their group regardless

But not always, which was, uh, the point. Like when Arsenal finished above Dortmund and City finished above Bayern, which negates your point.

and on many occasions fielded weaker squads because they didn't have to win.

Ah, now you're just switching outright to excuses.

I say EPL because that's the name of the league.

No, it's not. It's called the Premier League. Do you call La Liga BBVA, since there are other La Liga's out there?

Besides, you said yourself, there are other premier leagues out there.

Is the Russian league relevant to practically any discussion of 'the leagues'? No, I didn't think so, which means there is, 98% of the time, only one Premier League that anyone is referring to.

If we ignore the City results of last year, the last time a British team knocked out any of those teams you listed was Chelsea eking past PSG on away goals in 13-14.

...which still qualifies, and you're now cherry-picking to ignore the group stage wins. Why is that?

With the exceptions of that instance and City last season, that is the only time any of the teams you listed (not to mention Barca/RM/Juve) were knocked out by an EPL team

Well, considering that BVB have not played a single PL team in the knock-out rounds, that's a pretty cheap distortion of the facts, and once again you are cherry-picking to count only the results you want to count. Why? I have to say, Sunny, that it seems once again as though you're simply trying to argue that the PL has been 'weak' when in fact it has not.

And of all the big clubs, you'd have to say PSG is the weakest. That is the only major clubs knocked out by British clubs since Chelsea's 2011-12 victory. It's 2017 now. It's been awhile."

Because they keep on coming up against Barcelona, who defeat them, or Bayern, who scrape by on the away goal rule. Did you miss that part? Once again this seems like you are distorting the data to remove any context which demonstrates and proves that PL teams have been competing with and beating top teams from Europe.

Sheesh.

While some of those group stage wins that are included in your results were big for the British teams, they didn't really have an impact on the big Euro teams, who usually went through first in their group regardless

But not always, which was, uh, the point. Like when Arsenal finished above Dortmund and City finished above Bayern, which negates your point.

and on many occasions fielded weaker squads because they didn't have to win.

Ah, now you're just switching outright to excuses.

I say EPL because that's the name of the league.

No, it's not. It's called the Premier League. Do you call La Liga BBVA, since there are other La Liga's out there?

Besides, you said yourself, there are other premier leagues out there.

Is the Russian league relevant to practically any discussion of 'the leagues'? No, I didn't think so, which means there is, 98% of the time, there's only one Premier League that anyone is referring to.

If we ignore the City results of last year, the last time a British team knocked out any of those teams you listed was Chelsea eking past PSG on away goals in 13-14.

...which still qualifies, and is precisely how PSG squeezed past them the very next year (plus how Bayern squeezed past Arsenal) and you're now cherry-picking to ignore the group stage wins. Why is that?

With the exceptions of that instance and City last season, that is the only time any of the teams you listed (not to mention Barca/RM/Juve) were knocked out by an EPL team

Well, considering that BVB have not played a single PL team in the knock-out rounds, that's a pretty cheap distortion of the facts, and once again you are cherry-picking to count only the results you want to count. Why? I have to say, Sunny, that it does start to seems as though you're simply trying to deny the PL teams any credit...

And of all the big clubs, you'd have to say PSG is the weakest. That is the only major clubs knocked out by British clubs since Chelsea's 2011-12 victory. It's 2017 now. It's been awhile."

Because they keep on coming up against Barcelona, who defeat them, or Bayern, who scrape by on the away goal rule. Did you miss that part? Once again this seems like you are distorting the data to remove any context which demonstrates and proves that PL teams have been competing with and beating top teams from Europe.

Sheesh.

While some of those group stage wins that are included in your results were big for the British teams, they didn't really have an impact on the big Euro teams, who usually went through first in their group regardless

But not always, which was, uh, the point. Like when Arsenal finished above Dortmund and City finished above Bayern, which negates your point.

and on many occasions fielded weaker squads because they didn't have to win.

Ah, now you're just switching outright to excuses.

I say EPL because that's the name of the league.

No, it's not. It's called the Premier League. Do you call La Liga BBVA, since there are other La Liga's out there?

Besides, you said yourself, there are other premier leagues out there.

Is the Russian league relevant to practically any discussion of 'the leagues'? No, I didn't think so, which means there is, 98% of the time, there's only one Premier League that anyone is referring to.

Why do you always have to take personal shots? Why can't you have a discussion without taking a cheapshot at someone? Jesus *** Christ, that more than anything else is getting on my nerves.

Hey, fight me. I'm bored. :)

As for the whatever this discussion is, here's a nice bottom line to broaden your horizon with - EPL teams don't advance past the teams we're talking about, irrelevant if they win or not.

Er, yes they do, as proven by the very same statistics we've just been discussing. INCLUDING (because there is zero reason to exclude it) the games of City, here's the breakdown of PL teams vs Bayern, PSG and Dortmund:

Arsenal: P14, W5, D4, L5 (2 k.o losses to Bayern, 1 on goal difference)
Chelsea: P8, W2, D2, L4 (1 k.o win, 2 k.o loss, 2 on goal difference)
Man City: P8, W4, D1, L3 (1 k.o win)

TOTAL: P30, W11, D7, L12 (2 k.o wins, 4 k.o losses)

That's pretty good, would you not say? Competing, perhaps? Because I think that's rather concrete proof that England's Top 4 teams have been doing rather well against the (usually runaway) winners of 1-team leagues like Germany and France, whom everyone seems to think should be considered world-class.

Since the last time a EPL team won the CL, only two EPL teams have made it to the semis, where both lost,

Yes, that's correct, and since Bayern won in 2013, they've not made it to another final (and Dortmund have not made it to even a semi), and PSG themselves have NEVER made it to a semi in their entire history.

And yet? Those teams are 'elite'. Those teams are somehow great, and on the level of Barca and Madrid. But the PL teams? Awww, they're just 'weak', aren't they? That's how that works, isn't it? ;)

Facts, Sun. They're more important than clinging to a perspective, just because you want it to be true.

What I'm getting at is that these are the teams that English clubs have knocked out since 12-13: Olympiacos, Galatasary, PSG twice, and Kiev. The record of English clubs in all the knockout round ties since 12-13 is a whopping 5 won ties on 17 attempts. Actually think about that, because in reality, that's what matters more than anything else, and that's why English teams aren't winning, or even getting close to winning Europe.

And neither is anybody else, as I've just shown you. Except for Bayern, who keep on losing to Spanish teams, just like the PL ones, and keep getting beaten in the group stages whenever they have an English team there to do so.

You say 5 wins as though out of 17 that's bad. It isn't, because it hides the fact that they'be only lost about the same. The rest? It was even.

When you have a record of, say, W3 D4 L3 with a team, that means you are EVEN. That doesn't mean that you 'only win 30% of the time, so therefore you're performing badly'.

See?

Why do you always have to take personal shots? Why can't you have a discussion without taking a cheapshot at someone? Jesus *** Christ, that more than anything else is getting on my nerves.

Hey, fight me. I'm bored. :)

As for the whatever this discussion is, here's a nice bottom line to broaden your horizon with - EPL teams don't advance past the teams we're talking about, irrelevant if they win or not.

Er, yes they do, as proven by the very same statistics we've just been discussing. INCLUDING (because there is zero reason to exclude it) the games of City, here's the breakdown of PL teams vs Bayern, PSG and Dortmund:

Arsenal: P14, W5, D4, L5 (2 k.o losses to Bayern, 1 on goal difference)
Chelsea: P8, W2, D2, L4 (1 k.o win, 2 k.o loss, 2 on goal difference)
Man City: P8, W4, D1, L3 (1 k.o win)

TOTAL: P30, W11, D7, L12 (2 k.o wins, 4 k.o losses)

That's pretty good, would you not say? Competing, perhaps? Because I think that's rather concrete proof that England's Top 4 teams have been doing rather well against the (usually runaway) winners of 1-team leagues like Germany and France, whom everyone seems to think should be considered world-class.

Since the last time a EPL team won the CL, only two EPL teams have made it to the semis, where both lost,

Yes, that's correct, and since Bayern won in 2013, they've not made it to another final (and Dortmund have not made it to even a semi), and PSG themselves have NEVER made it to a semi in their entire history.

And yet? Those teams are 'elite'. Those teams are somehow great, and on the level of Barca and Madrid. But the PL teams? Awww, they're just 'weak', aren't they? That's how that works, isn't it? ;)

Facts, Sun. They're more important than clinging to a perspective, just because you want it to be true. Christ, that is getting on my nerves more than anything else. :)

What I'm getting at is that these are the teams that English clubs have knocked out since 12-13: Olympiacos, Galatasary, PSG twice, and Kiev. The record of English clubs in all the knockout round ties since 12-13 is a whopping 5 won ties on 17 attempts. Actually think about that, because in reality, that's what matters more than anything else, and that's why English teams aren't winning, or even getting close to winning Europe.

And neither is anybody else, as I've just shown you. Except for Bayern, who keep on losing to Spanish teams, just like the PL ones, and keep getting beaten in the group stages whenever they have an English team there to do so.

You say 5 wins as though out of 17 that's bad. It isn't, because it hides the fact that they'be only lost about the same. The rest? It was even.

When you have a record of, say, W3 D4 L3 with a team, that means you are EVEN. That doesn't mean that you 'only win 30% of the time, so therefore you're performing badly'.

See?

Why do you always have to take personal shots? Why can't you have a discussion without taking a cheapshot at someone? Jesus *** Christ, that more than anything else is getting on my nerves.

Hey, fight me. I'm bored. :)

As for the whatever this discussion is, here's a nice bottom line to broaden your horizon with - EPL teams don't advance past the teams we're talking about, irrelevant if they win or not.

Er, yes they do, as proven by the very same statistics we've just been discussing. INCLUDING (because there is zero reason to exclude it) the games of City, here's the breakdown of PL teams vs Bayern, PSG and Dortmund:

Arsenal: P14, W5, D4, L5 (2 k.o losses to Bayern, 1 on goal difference)
Chelsea: P8, W2, D2, L4 (1 k.o win, 2 k.o loss, 2 on goal difference)
Man City: P8, W4, D1, L3 (1 k.o win)

TOTAL: P30, W11, D7, L12 (2 k.o wins, 4 k.o losses)

That's pretty good, would you not say? Competing, perhaps? Because I think that's rather concrete proof that England's Top 4 teams have been doing rather well against the (usually runaway) winners of 1-team leagues like Germany and France, whom everyone seems to think should be considered world-class.

Since the last time a EPL team won the CL, only two EPL teams have made it to the semis, where both lost,

Yes, that's correct, and since Bayern won in 2013, they've not made it to another final (and Dortmund have not made it to even a semi), and PSG themselves have NEVER made it to a semi in their entire history.

And yet? Those teams are 'elite'. Those teams are somehow great, and on the level of Barca and Madrid. But the PL teams? Awww, they're just 'weak', aren't they? That's how that works, isn't it?

Facts, Sun. They're more important than clinging to a perspective, just because you want it to be true, or to avoid admitting someone else is right. Christ, that is getting on my nerves more than anything else. :)

What I'm getting at is that these are the teams that English clubs have knocked out since 12-13: Olympiacos, Galatasary, PSG twice, and Kiev. The record of English clubs in all the knockout round ties since 12-13 is a whopping 5 won ties on 17 attempts. Actually think about that, because in reality, that's what matters more than anything else, and that's why English teams aren't winning, or even getting close to winning Europe.

And neither is anybody else, as I've just shown you. Except for Bayern, who keep on losing to Spanish teams, just like the PL ones, and keep getting beaten in the group stages whenever they have an English team there to do so.

You say 5 wins as though out of 17 that's bad. It isn't, because it hides the fact that they'be only lost about the same. The rest? It was even.

When you have a record of, say, W3 D4 L3 with a team, that means you are EVEN. That doesn't mean that you 'only win 30% of the time, so therefore you're performing badly'.

See?

Why do you always have to take personal shots? Why can't you have a discussion without taking a cheapshot at someone? Jesus *** Christ, that more than anything else is getting on my nerves.

Hey, fight me. I'm bored. :)

As for the whatever this discussion is, here's a nice bottom line to broaden your horizon with - EPL teams don't advance past the teams we're talking about, irrelevant if they win or not.

Er, yes they do, as proven by the very same statistics we've just been discussing. INCLUDING (because there is zero reason to exclude it) the games of City, here's the breakdown of PL teams vs Bayern, PSG and Dortmund:

Arsenal: P14, W5, D4, L5 (2 k.o losses to Bayern, 1 on goal difference)
Chelsea: P8, W2, D2, L4 (1 k.o win, 2 k.o loss, 2 on goal difference)
Man City: P8, W4, D1, L3 (1 k.o win)

TOTAL: P30, W11, D7, L12 (2 k.o wins, 4 k.o losses)

That's pretty good, would you not say? Competing, perhaps? Because I think that's rather concrete proof that England's Top 4 teams have been doing rather well against the (usually runaway) winners of 1-team leagues like Germany and France, whom everyone seems to think should be considered world-class.

Since the last time a EPL team won the CL, only two EPL teams have made it to the semis, where both lost,

Yes, that's correct, and since Bayern won in 2013, they've not made it to another final (and Dortmund have not made it to even a semi), and PSG themselves have NEVER made it to a semi in their entire history.

And yet? Those teams are 'elite'. Those teams are somehow great, and on the level of Barca and Madrid. But the PL teams? Awww, they're just 'weak', aren't they? That's how that works, isn't it?

Facts, Sun. They're more important than clinging to a perspective, just because you want it to be true, or to perpetuate an insulting myth. Christ, that is getting on my nerves more than anything else. :)

What I'm getting at is that these are the teams that English clubs have knocked out since 12-13: Olympiacos, Galatasary, PSG twice, and Kiev. The record of English clubs in all the knockout round ties since 12-13 is a whopping 5 won ties on 17 attempts. Actually think about that, because in reality, that's what matters more than anything else, and that's why English teams aren't winning, or even getting close to winning Europe.

And neither is anybody else, as I've just shown you. Except for Bayern, who keep on losing to Spanish teams, just like the PL ones, and keep getting beaten in the group stages whenever they have an English team there to do so.

You say 5 wins as though out of 17 that's bad. It isn't, because it hides the fact that they'be only lost about the same. The rest? It was even.

When you have a record of, say, W3 D4 L3 with a team, that means you are EVEN. That doesn't mean that you 'only win 30% of the time, so therefore you're performing badly'.

See?

So why aren't British teams making the final?

Because they keep getting knocked out by Barcelona and the Madrids. Did you not get the memo?

What makes them any better than the cohort of Monaco, Benfica, Wolfsburg, Malaga, Galatasary, and Porto, who as I pointed out have more wins than Arsenal and equal United?

Funny, I can't recall the last time Malaga knocked out Bayern, or Benfica took 3 points from Arsenal.

Are you really going to try and take us even further from the point? C'mon, Eddy, don't ruin another thread.

So why aren't British teams making the final?

Because they keep getting knocked out by Barcelona and the Madrids. Did you not get the memo?

What makes them any better than the cohort of Monaco, Benfica, Wolfsburg, Malaga, Galatasary, and Porto, who as I pointed out have more wins than Arsenal and equal United?

So, you're abandoning the topic now that I've shown you facts and figures which contradict your opinion, and want to go off in yet another tangent rather than admit that you were wrong? C'mon, Eddy, don't ruin another thread.

Funny, I can't recall the last time Malaga lost to Bayern on the away goals rule, or Benfica took 3 points from Arsenal, but I can't wait to hear about it, in this thread about the English Top 6. :)

Lol about that perception, when you loose home to Bayern by minimum 2 goals margin, the tie is over even if you grab the win against qualified Bayern already thinking to the next fixture.
No English team passed through a top 4 in Europe since Chelsea in 2012, 5 years of failure so maybe its you that should adjust perception.

Who thinks Arsenal has a chance vs Bayern except Lodatz ? Seriously ?