So, I was taking a look at the current Top 6 of the Premier League, and I decided to go find out how they've actually been faring against just each other; I figured it would be fun to compare to actual league position, so here goes:

Here are the results of the Top 6 mini-table, for 2016/17 only:

As we can see, it looks rather similar to how the league table itself looks right now, which is:

Obviously Chelsea and Tottenham have one game extra over the others, but it's still pretty stable, and pretty close. Liverpool have been outstanding against their direct rivals, whereas everyone else has had mixed fortunes -- very competitive indeed!

But then I wondered: how does this pan out in a longer period? Say, if I were to include last season's results too, and see if anything changes in the hierarchy? Well, let's take a look:

It's... virtually identical. The only real change/surprise is how well United did against the others last year. But, isn't it also interesting that all 3 of the top teams in that mini-table... failed to even make the Top 4 last season. So, clearly that dominance did NOT translate into true league position, last season.

So what's made the difference? Can we say that the largest chunk is the lack of European football, since all 3 teams did have CL and/or EL campaigns last season, and only United has it this year (and is correspondingly 6th)? Or is there more going on?

Discuss.

So, I was taking a look at the current Top 6 of the Premier League, and I decided to go find out how they've actually been faring against just each other; I figured it would be fun to compare to actual league position, so here goes:

Here are the results of the Top 6 mini-table, for 2016/17 only:

As we can see, it looks rather similar to how the league table itself looks right now, which is:

Obviously Chelsea and Tottenham have one game extra over the others, but it's still pretty stable, and pretty close. Liverpool have been outstanding against their direct rivals, whereas everyone else has had mixed fortunes -- very competitive indeed!

But then I wondered: how does this pan out in a longer period? Say, if I were to include last season's results too, and see if anything changes in the hierarchy? Well, let's take a look:

It's... pretty close to the first, and pretty tight. The only real changes/surprises is how well United did against the others last year, and how poorly City did. But, isn't it also interesting that all 3 of the top teams in that mini-table... failed to even make the Top 4 last season. So, clearly that dominance did NOT translate into true league position, last season.

So what's made the difference? Can we say that the largest chunk is the lack of European football, since all 3 teams did have CL and/or EL campaigns last season, and only United has it this year (and is correspondingly 6th)? Or is there more going on?

Discuss.

So, I was taking a look at the current Top 6 of the Premier League, and I decided to go find out how they've actually been faring against just each other; I figured it would be fun to compare to actual league position, so here goes:

Here are the results of the Top 6 mini-table, for 2016/17 only:

As we can see, it looks rather similar to how the league table itself looks right now, which is:

Obviously Chelsea and Tottenham have one game extra over the others, but it's still pretty stable, and pretty close. Liverpool have been outstanding against their direct rivals, whereas everyone else has had mixed fortunes -- very competitive indeed!

But then I wondered: how does this pan out in a longer period? Say, if I were to include last season's results too, and see if anything changes in the hierarchy? Well, let's take a look:

It's... pretty close to the first, and pretty tight. The only real changes/surprises is how well United did against the others last year, and how poorly City did. But, isn't it also interesting that all 3 of the top teams in that mini-table... failed to even make the Top 4 last season. So, clearly that dominance did NOT translate into true league position, last season.

Liverpool came 7th, despite this prowess against their rivals, so clarly they were not performing so well against teams down the rest of the table. Have they learned something new this season, which is helping them, or is it the lack of European football to distract them from avoiding losses to the strong teams in the bottom half of the table?

What about Chelsea? How much of it is down to a new system under Conte? How much of it again is due to having no distractions in Europe, allowing them to field their first XI more often against smaller teams? Or is there something else going on?

United have had EL action both seasons, and remained in roughly the same place. Is this coincidence? Will the second half of the season run along the same lines as this first?

Discuss.

Lol about that perception, when you loose home to Bayern by minimum 2 goals margin, the tie is over even if you grab the win against qualified Bayern already thinking to the next fixture.

Well, no, because when they have to win on away goal difference, it means that one more goal in either tie would have won the game for you.

No English team passed through a top 4 in Europe since Chelsea in 2012, 5 years of failure so maybe its you that should adjust perception.

I'll let you re-read your sentence until the math becomes clear, but it does seem you've still failed to listen to what has been written multiple times in this one conversation alone.

Moderators: see how this thread has now become an attack upon the English Top 6, since Sun and tiki started participating?

Lol about that perception, when you loose home to Bayern by minimum 2 goals margin, the tie is over even if you grab the win against qualified Bayern already thinking to the next fixture.

Well, no, because when they have to win on away goal difference, it means that one more goal in either tie would have won the game for you.

No English team passed through a top 4 in Europe since Chelsea in 2012, 5 years of failure so maybe its you that should adjust perception.

I'll let you re-read your sentence until the math becomes clear, but it does seem you've still failed to listen to what has been written multiple times in this one conversation alone.

See how this thread has now become another attack upon the English Top 6? Tsk tsk.

Sunflash said something correct and then you started an argument defending how English Football was not that poor in Europe, i mean seriously, you think we are stupid or something ? Since 2012 No English team got past Barca/Bayern/Madrid/Atletico And its. It an attack it's a fact, get yours straight.

Sunflash said something correct and then you started an argument defending how English Football was not that poor in Europe, i mean seriously, you think we are stupid or something ? Since 2012 No English team got past Barca/Bayern/Madrid/Atletico And its. It an attack it's a fact, get yours straight.

Why is it that you act as though I didn't thoroughly and convincingly prove that English teams have been competing with Bayern, PSG etc, when I can quite assure you that I did? Click on the Previous button below, and it'll take you back to the page where I proved it. :)

Now, if you could please let a thread about the PL go by without saying that English teams are sh.it, then that would be much appreciated.

Said what I wanted to say,

Yes, and as as always what you wanted to say was: the PL is sh.it.

Well, thanks for that, tiki. I mean, ti's what you say every time, so it's nothing new, and is probably a large reason why there are so few threads discussing PL football, but I'm sure your contribution was meaningful and necessary.

You have nothing to prove, results prove themselves.

Yes, but then you go ahead and ignore them whenever it suits you, such as when Arsenal beat Bayern, or when City beat Barcelona. Then you just go right back to calling all English teams sh.it.

Thanks again.

Said what I wanted to say,

Yes, and as as always what you wanted to say was: the PL is sh.it.

Well, thanks for that, tiki. I mean, ti's what you say every time, so it's nothing new, and is probably a large reason why there are so few threads discussing PL football, but I'm sure your contribution was meaningful and necessary.

You have nothing to prove, results prove themselves.

What, like when Arsenal beat Bayern, or when City beat Barcelona?

Said what I wanted to say,

Yes, and as as always what you wanted to say was: the PL is sh.it.

Well, thanks for that, tiki. I mean, it's what you say every time, so it's nothing new, and is probably a large reason why there are so few threads discussing PL football, but I'm sure your contribution was meaningful and necessary, and was not at all an attempt to just insult the team or league of someone you don't like.

You have nothing to prove, results prove themselves.

What, like when Arsenal beat Bayern, or when City beat Barcelona?

I don't think PL is shit,

Then why do you keep on saying that, in thread after thread after thread? Where do you think Sun got half of his opinions from in the first place? It's from hearing you repeat it as though it's a fact, all the time, when it's not.

It's funny, because I don't go around saying that Chelsea or Spurs are contenders to win the Champions League, or say that Spanish football is crap. Maybe the problem is less that I'm saying anything wrong, it's more that you don't let me (or anyone else) ever say that the PL is any good, and pretend that what you are doing is just 'sharing your opinion' instead of taking over every conversation with shots and digs about how much better Barcelona and Madrid are?

If you were truly a fan of FC Barcelona for footballing reasons, then you would see the beauty in what Spurs, for instance, are trying to accomplish. Instead, you constantly underrate them and delight in mocking their defeats. Why? We both know why.

When, say, City lose to Barcelona, you say that this proves that City and the PL are shi.t. You never say: City were damn good, we were just better. I would say that. I say it about Chelsea yesterday, in fact. They were not poor by any means, but we were better on the day. I don't call them shi.t and mock the idea that they are good, just because they didn't beat your beloved Barcelona.

That's called having respect for your opponents.

I don't think PL is shit,

Then why do you keep on saying that, in thread after thread after thread? Where do you think Sun got half of his opinions from in the first place? It's from hearing you repeat it as though it's a fact, all the time, when it's not.

It's funny, because I don't go around saying that Chelsea or Spurs are contenders to win the Champions League, or say that Spanish football is crap. Maybe the problem is less that I'm saying anything wrong, it's more that you don't let me (or anyone else) ever say that the PL is any good, and pretend that what you are doing is just 'sharing your opinion' instead of taking over every conversation with shots and digs about how much better Barcelona and Madrid are?

If you were truly a fan of FC Barcelona for footballing reasons, then you would see the beauty in what Spurs, for instance, are trying to accomplish. Instead, you constantly underrate them and delight in mocking their defeats. Why? We both know why.

When, say, City lose to Barcelona, you say that this proves that City and the PL are shi.t. You never say: City were damn good, we were just better. I would say that. I say it about Chelsea yesterday, in fact. They were not poor by any means, but we were better on the day. I don't call them shi.t and mock the idea that they are good, just because they didn't beat your beloved Barcelona.

That's called having respect.

I don't think PL is shit,

Then why do you keep on saying that, in thread after thread after thread? Where do you think Sun got half of his opinions from in the first place? It's from hearing you repeat it as though it's a fact, all the time, when it's not.

It's funny, because I don't go around saying that Chelsea or Spurs are contenders to win the Champions League, or say that Spanish football is crap. Maybe the problem is less that I'm saying anything wrong, it's more that you don't let me (or anyone else) ever say that the PL is any good, and pretend that what you are doing is just 'sharing your opinion' instead of taking over every conversation with shots and digs about how much better Barcelona and Madrid are?

If you were truly a fan of FC Barcelona for footballing reasons, then you would see the beauty in what Spurs, for instance, are trying to accomplish. Instead, you constantly underrate them and delight in mocking their defeats. Why? We both know why.

When, say, City lose to Barcelona, you say that this proves that City and the PL are shi.t. You never say: City were damn good, we were just better. I would say that. I say it about Chelsea yesterday, in fact. They were not poor by any means, but we were better on the day. I don't call them shi.t and mock the idea that they are good, just because they didn't beat your beloved Barcelona.

That's called having respect.

Maybe that's been the missing ingredient.

I don't think PL is shit,

Then why do you keep on saying that, in thread after thread after thread? Where do you think Sun got half of his opinions from in the first place? It's from hearing you repeat it as though it's a fact, all the time, when it's not.

It's funny, because I don't go around saying that Chelsea or Spurs are contenders to win the Champions League, or say that Spanish football is crap. Maybe the problem is less that I'm saying anything wrong, it's more that you don't let me (or anyone else) ever say that the PL is any good, and pretend that what you are doing is just 'sharing your opinion' instead of taking over every conversation with shots and digs about how much better Barcelona and Madrid are?

If you were truly a fan of FC Barcelona for footballing reasons, then you would see the beauty in what Spurs, for instance, are trying to accomplish. Instead, you constantly underrate them and delight in mocking their defeats. Why? We both know why.

When, say, City lose to Barcelona, you say that this proves that City and the PL are shi.t. You never say: City were damn good, we were just better. I would say that. I say it about Chelsea yesterday, in fact. They were not poor by any means, but we were better on the day. I don't call them shi.t and mock the idea that they are good, just because they didn't beat your beloved Barcelona.

That's called having respect.

I don't think PL is shit,

Then why do you keep on saying that, in thread after thread after thread? Where do you think Sun got half of his opinions from in the first place? It's from hearing you repeat it as though it's a fact, all the time, when it's not.

It's funny, because I don't go around saying that Chelsea or Spurs are contenders to win the Champions League, or say that Spanish football is crap. Maybe the problem is less that I'm saying anything wrong, it's more that you don't let me (or anyone else) ever say that the PL is any good, and pretend that what you are doing is just 'sharing your opinion' instead of taking over every conversation with shots and digs about how inferior they are to Barcelona and Madrid, and of course always will be?

If you were truly a fan of FC Barcelona for footballing reasons, then you would see the beauty in what Spurs, for instance, are trying to accomplish. Instead, you constantly underrate them and delight in mocking their defeats. Why? We both know why.

When, say, City lose to Barcelona, you say that this proves that City and the PL are shi.t. You never say: City were damn good, we were just better. I would say that. I say it about Chelsea yesterday, in fact. They were not poor by any means, but we were better on the day. I don't call them shi.t and mock the idea that they are good, just because they didn't beat your beloved Barcelona.

That's called having respect.

@Dynast: I'm perfectly chill, dude. I'm just pointing out what it looks like from the other side.

Remember way back, when the PL was undoubtedly on top? Remember how the complaints always used to be about PL fan-boys who are arrogant and biased, etc? You can decide for yourself how much of that was fair and how much not, but the opposite has been true for years now, by and large.

No-one wins if enemies become what they once despised. Trying to put it to rest once and for all.

Because you're the king of respect. I agree with most of what tiki's said (fuck me), but there is one thing I'd like to revisit.

You wanted to know why I brought those other European clubs into this. It wasn't to sidetrack, it was to show a different perspective. If the EPL clubs can't get past the cohort of clubs that knock them out every season, and neither can those other European clubs, who win more against weaker opposition than Arsenal and at the same rate as United, what evidence in terms of knockout round advancement do we have that the EPL teams are better than those we would otherwise assume are inferior? City did win two last season, and Chlesea won twice in 13-14, but neither team was able to make it past anyone other than PSG and weaker teams from Ukraine and Turkey. If they aren't making it past the better teams in Europe, even if they're getting results in the group stages, how can I justify them being better, or even on the same level?

@emo
I guess they rarely want then :D
Inconsistency is not an excuse, its a weakness. Anyway I don't know what doing quite alright for themselves really means, but I just don't wana here they are doing incredibly in Europe like Lodatz is claiming. Thats reality denial.

But doesn't take anything from what you said.

@Sun I think you will wait for an answer, its been 4 years I'm pointing these results against Basel, Zagreb, Ajax, PSV, Olympiakos, Monaco, Leverkusen, Wolfsburg... And the list is long to make people realize that if you struggle vs Basel you will surely struggle vs Everton and its not because Everton are world class. If the auto critic of the league is done they can go forward. Here it's quite impossible for some to see some common sense. They prefer to ignore it, look for a suitable comment for his initial vision, or Cherrypick one senstence from a 30 line post and ignore the rest.