@Dynastian98 @tiki

You want to keep lying to yourself saying that he deserved each one of those Dors ? Pleasseee ... Poor Snijder , Xavi
and Iniesta will retire without ever getting a single Balon Dor .

And Ronaldo Balon ? They gave him out of pity after scandal that good boy Messi was getting special treatment from dumb asss uncle Blatter who can\\\'t even keep his mouth shut . Balon Dor became a joke . However , you right no one will remember the fact how it was won but everyone will remember that they won those Dor\\\'s . Just like people find out through wikipedia archives that Johan Cruyff won 3 Dors and they will also find out about Messi and Ronaldo in the same way .

Maybe i did not type clear enough . I was not comparing Giggs to Messi . I was simply listing best footballers of all time . Ok Lets take out Giggs. So here is more clearer explanation . Please do not drag me into Messi discussion , I am talking about overall players who got recognition as best in the world . Players who has Dors or FIFA best player awards but do not have WC title thus will not be ever considered among Greatest of All time .

I simply state that when years go by people will regard these players as one of the greats but not one of the GREATEST. Not in the same line for example as Marodonna , Pele , Zidane , Ronaldo and Beckenbauer. Here is comparison to military history : Few people know that Louis - Nicolas Davout or Michel \\\"Lion Heart \\\" Ney were one of best generals that our world has ever seen but no historian will put them along one of the Greatest generals like Napoleon , Alexander the Great , Cesar , Suvorov , Friedrich the Great , Peter the Great because they won big battles that won the WARS ! I hope this time i made sense . It is sad but it is fact !

Ok fine i will discuss a bit about Messi . Just go and ask Argentinians who they love more Marodonna or Messi ? Most of them will say Diego Marodonna because this player played in average underdog football clubs ( Barcelona and Napoli were far from not good that time ) , did amazing things at national level ( did not choke like Messi did in 2010) and finally brought World Cup in 1986 . Until Messi wins World Cup, he will always be considered underachiever in the eyes of Argentinians , who won some european individual and club trophies at arguably one of the greatest teams football has ever seen from period 2008 till 2012 . He is still considered as a player who does not care about Argentina and there are few who likes him .

PS And still sit and argue whether Barcelona even deserved to go 2009 final and then in 2011 final both of them were plagued by referee scandals Chelsea , arsenal , Real Madrid ... but that is another topic . But then Marodona\\\'s hand of god comes to mind , but at least it was his work not officials and outside forces , eh ))

One thing Marcus, History is writen by the winners, not the losers. Look at Sarkozy Nobel prize of peace 2012, Obama 2013, the war maker wins nobel prize.
Sarkozed killed 50.000 civilians in 2012 for oil, he hosted Kadafi as a friend in 2008 and killed him in 2012. They killed his 2 granchildren (3 and 5 years old ) by a drone when they were playing in the garden.
i mean what has been said in History has no sence. I can certify to you that Napoleon was an asshole, and the English royal family sold homeless white kids, and Irish kids to slavery in South America, 87% of died in less than 10 years of slavery.
Dont take everything for granted, i stopped trusting what they told me at school, because those who makes the planet looks like Hell are writing History themselves. But you can find deep researches about everything in the internet if you know where to find good documentation.
Sorry i went off topic, but we were already off topic :).

@Dynastian not 4 times but 4 times in a row and there are more to come ;) and ya just like Lodatz and Tiki said he is only 26, by the time he retires he prob have like around 5 CL titles, like 6 Ballon D\\\'or\\\'s, and right now u guys rate him at 5th greatest n u are def right about World Cup, you need to be fortunate, but i still think Argentina have a really good chance of wining because of their forward line up, all they need is a goalie and defence and a little more of mid.

@Tiki ikr, some people still can\\\'t get over Messi, these people are truly retards, every game he dribbles past the whole defence and every game he creates a lot of chances. you need like 4 defenders to stop him

he is the reason why i mostly watch Barcelona matches because of his playing style

@Marcus let me tell u what u are saying right now
so lets say some one is born in a country which u never heard of or does not have a Football national team and that guy breaks all the record, scores more goals then Pele, plays way better then everyone you know, but won't be considered as one of the best because he didn't win a World Cup?

EDIT: how did the topic shift from Ibra's gift to Ronaldo to Messi and World cup?

@Tiki

It sucks but it is reality . More than 1.5 billion of people watch World Cup . Approximately ARound 250 million watch Champions league and some league football ( these figures are not accurate ) . Winning World Cup is higher and bigger achievement due to audience and importance . In world cup there no rich owners but it is pure talent and desire to win . It is a stage where players make it big . Half of Germany team in 2010 got that recognition like of Ozil and etc. Either way We can just agree to disagree .

Lol i don't why we touched history , I was just making little comparison . However , that is a different issue . There is old saying : "believe half of what you see and nothing that you hear " . School may not teach you accurate history but they give you general basics on which you can choose expand your knowledge by doing independent researches so disclaiming history at school is wrong way to go .

I love history and 18th century and beginning of 19th century are one of my favorites parts of history . Those generals were tyrants but they were indeed genius generals . I am very much aware of their doings in history just like I am aware of Sarkozy and Obamas doings , but when years go by people will look back make these characters as heroes of the nation or villains . Ofcourse I do not think of either one of them as genius infact opposite , especially Sarkozy. Again , Only time will tell.

@waynerooney

No they are one of the best , but the one of the greatest of all time if we narrow them . I am sort of loosing this conversation . Just one more last time . This world cares about players who won something huge . Balon dor or best player of the world award is a must and to be considered as greatest , bring World CUp as well together . I was 7 and I knew who Pele and Maroddona , Beckenabaur , Gerd Muller , Ronaldo were because they were on every ones lips but I found out about Cruyff when i was 13 because I started to look into football history more heavily . We are heavy football fans , but we are so few compare to people who only watch and care about football when there is a league game , little more care about champions league game and 10 times more care about World cup . Those people stay in their minds due to World Cup. My uncle was always telling me about these players also in particular about Gerd Muller because he was his favorite . Particularly he would describe his performance at the world cup .

@Marcus oh so r u trying to say that people will not remember Messi as much as Maradona,Pele,etc.. because he hasn't won a world cup? i see what your saying, so Fans like us will know that Messi is one of the greatest to play, but to people who just watch football and are not into it that much and therefore will not put Messi in Pele,Maradona because he does not have a World Cup trophy