Just wanted to show zonal and individual approach of marking Messi he has to deal with each game, why not to show it to people who do not atknowledge why Messi is the biggest marked player i have seen in 20 years of following Football...

if Messi was playing vs Barca in Dybala's role, Barça wouldnt cross midlefield line, would have 0 shot and Messi would have scored 4 at least.

First being in Sandro zone, Sandro do not attack him, wait for Khedira to cover Space at his right in case Messi takes speed, another cover Khedira's back and then Juve players can try to take the ball in security...Messi feels it, decide to change position and enter in Dybala's Zone, Dybala is then the one to face him, Higuain then cover right space and Khedira close space at the back....

There is no secret, if you want to stop the unstoppable, you need to do huge team effort, and in case you do not witness that in a game, its just because you watch games as a TV show instead of Football amator player.

Yeah, I notice how they mark Messi in everygame of Barca. It's impossible not to notice that tho. Same goes for Neymar.
But Juventus are the experts when it comes to this. Looking forward to the second game because Juventus' defence and marking will be extraordinary.

Since this thread is pretty obviously targeted at me I'll bite.

Messi is playing as a low RW with obvious free reign to move more centrally. In the clip within the first post, Alex Sandro (FB) is pretty high standing up Messi, which is actually kind of poor defense, and I would assume this is directly after some Juve possession where Sandro had pushed ahead of his outside midfielder (Mandzukic). Because of this, Mandzukic has dropped deep to cover Sandro and they've essentially switched positions. When Messi cuts inside and Dybala drops back to cover the center (required so the neither of the two CM's step up to open an easy pass down the spine). Sandro immediately bails back to his fullback position and Mandzukic decides that pressing Messi isn't worth it and instead zonal marks whomever that Barca player on the top right of the shot is - which is the correct play. Messi then makes Dybala look stupid, which is kind of amusing, and forces Khedria to pick him up. Khedria recognizes Mandzukic zonal marking the width, so he doesn't have to press Messi at all, just prevent the inside pass, which he does.

While no doubt Juventus are giving Messi more attention than any other player, this is just good team defense. Very few, if any, teams do this as well as Juventus.

What you're basically seeing here is just really good zonal defense. If Messi dribbles out of one player's zone, that player will retreat, and the player within the next zone will pick him up. There is no additional marking going on here than there would be for any other player. Zonal marking in particular requires that the entire direct passing lane is closed, so only in rare situations (e.g. 18 yard box or a lengthy dribble) would Messi even have the chance to be marked by multiple players.

I don't really understand how this clip highlights this:

Just wanted to show zonal and individual approach of marking Messi he has to deal with each game, why not to show it to people who do not atknowledge why Messi is the biggest marked player i have seen in 20 years of following Football...

It kind of shows the opposite, and I'm sure you could find many other teams who focus on Messi more. Just an odd choice of evidence is as all.

Purely talking about Messi being player maker and being heavily marked, though he still pulled so many good dribbles and insane key passes is amazing. and I am with tiki here. Take nothing away from Dybala this game. Watch the 2nd clip.

What we fail to discuss time after time is: counter attacking. Almost every underdog team, weaker team and only play for result chooses this safer approach. Every miracle comes from a Counter attacking team. Including Real before the red card. This is NOTHING genius about this tactic when you are such an elite team.

The only teams that refuse to play counter attacking and stick to attacking game in and out are Barca, Arsenal, BVB. Thats why I like Arsenal despite sometimes being so lame.

There is nothing wrong with counter attacking, even if you have top class players. But its not that genius, and the striker tend to score a lotttt easier.

With that being said, Juve displayed something typical Italian and Dybala was as clinical as he could be. Top class finish. And deserves all praise he receives.

So this thread should really be called , analysing juventus zonal defence , the only comparison you draw between Dybala and messi is an abstract role reversal , however the comparison draws little merit , they had entirely different roles in the game . Your right messi was the only saving grace of Barcas (Enrique's) failed tactics . He created the only two chances and arguably two of the best chances in game. Really you could compare dybala to iniesta , one failed to convert one v one vs the goalie while the other scored twice .

One comparison two draw is that dybala and messi were both excellent
, while messi cut in from the right flank to create Barca only chances , Dybala, played the number 10 and barely received the ball in central positions , he would cut to either side of mascherano and get ball in channels , building up attack on the flank.

This was the appropriate response to the barce defensive system. On the counter attack while Barca switched from a back three to back four , the flank was so exploitive . Mathiee could not keep up with cuadrado flying. Pace while Sergio Roberto was unable to handle mandzukic , the two goals were almost Mirror images of each other

Another name you could call this thread is Tactics: Enrique vs Allegri

Dybala will make Argentina Great Again !!!

What can be Called poor defense is smart defense against 1 vs 1 wc dribbler, try to go tackling on him and you will loose him or get his feet wich lead to direct yellow.
How to defend against Messi ? Don't go to him, wait for space to get covered in the back, look what Khedira is calling players to cover his back, and specially do not throw yourself thinking you will get the ball, unless you made sure teammates are organized in your back...

Yes sun, first i saw the video, then i remembered what you were saying... if you want to see what pressing high Messi get as result look at all his solo goals from a static departure...

Marcus why not both can play together, better than some overrated teammates he has atm.

@golefty Juventus didnt invented anything, any good defending team applies same tactics...

Yes sun, first i saw the video, then i remembered what you were saying... if you want to see what pressing high Messi get as result look at all his solo goals from a static departure...

Zonal defenses don't press by default unless the ball player commits to that defenders zone. It's about forcing the attacker to make the decision/mistake. To be fair to Messi, while it pretty much negated his penetrating dribbles versus Juventus, he did pick a few really nice passes through the zone (e.g. that one to Inestia).

High pressing Messi, or any good dribbler for that matter, is probably the worst decision you can make. Because then the defender is committed, it's a pure 1v1, and there's a good chance Messi wins it. Not only that, but once he's won it, since high pressing in the midfield is done almost exclusively in a man-marking scheme, the defenders either have to let Messi dribble through unchallenged, or let go of the least vulnerable attacker to put a new defender on Messi. It's a horrible compromise that doesn't usually end well, if you were to look up those long Messi dribbles, nearly all of them are based on this exact situation.

The first video just shows that Messi keeps the ball too much for himself.
So the title is misleading and should be changed but I already know it won't be changed because it's tiki taka in question.

@tiki

I never said juventus invented anything did ?

, however their tactics were employed exquisitely

Why compare messi to dybala , obviously everyone knows messi is most marked player on the field. And if dybala was in Barcelona he would not be expected to fill messi shoes and would be played in an effective manner that fits his strengths .

There is no secret, if you want to stop the unstoppable, you need to do huge team effort, and in case you do not witness that in a game, its just because you watch games as a TV show instead of Football amator player.

The best teams are very organized defensively, and Juventus is probably the best out there in that regard. What do you expect them to do? Let Messi roam free?

Messi is not unstoppable. Chile has stopped him. Germany has stopped him. Bayern have stopped him. Real Madrid have stopped him. Juventus have stopped him. PSG have stopped him. Atletico Madrid have stopped him. Many teams have figured out how to completely nullify Messi to the point where he's practically invisible.

Of course, you can't keep a great player down forever. That's what makes them great. But if you think Messi is the first player to be marked this heavily then you're wrong. Juventus just used their classic defensive tactics to shut down Barcelona's offense, which revolves around Messi.

if Messi was playing vs Barca in Dybala's role, Barça wouldnt cross midlefield line, would have 0 shot and Messi would have scored 4 at least.

Never have I heard anyone say Dybala is better than Messi. Definitely not on this forum.

Im not comparing him at first stage, I just heard Dybala post game talk about discovering how hard it was to take the ball off pacey players, then I went looking for the action in question and I thought it was worth sharing...
Im not comparing both with all my respect to Dybala, he has a long way to go before reaching that level, if he reaches it one day...

Even this season, there is no match...

In not really comparing them, I just did now.

Lol you Barcelona fans love to deify Messi to a point where nothing and no one can touch him.

Maybe, if you had a player carrying whole club on his shoulders I bet you will do even more...

Not sure if having a squad with Rakitic, Iniesta, Suarez, and Neymar is a squad that is being "carried" on someone's shoulders.

But hey, if that's what you're referring to, I think I know what you mean. That 6-1 PSG game.... Neymar sure did look like he was "carrying" Barca to the quarter-finals.

If only Messi had Xavi and Iniesta in his prime, all games would be much easier, with Xavi gone and Iniesta getting older Barcelona is looking like Argentina with Messi not being able to win as much anymore.

This is why they need to invest in Verratti which would boost their midfield and bring back Dani Alves and let him retire with them.
Also Hector Bellerin should be bought in from Arsenal, the kid looks like a Barcelona player anyway because he was in their academy.

Dybala is great but if nobody passes to him he can't score, same with Messi if someone doesn't create a chance for him he can go around with the ball 40 meters from the enemy goal whole game it won't make any difference.

You take one game dynast we both know who's the best performer of this season individually not just at Barca...

Barca is seriously sh1t. I just finished watching Barca 3 2 Real Socidad. Barca mid and defend are embarrasing. Terrible... if some Real Socidad playets had not been so stupid and selfish. They would have had turned it around and won.

Barca doesnt deserve anything this season. If you put Ronaldo, Grizemann and Messi in Barca up front, they cant do much better with this team either. Its fair to say MSN carries Barca and Messi have done most. But they all do, not only Messi.

Back to the topic here. Who in the right mind would compare Dybala vs Messi? Dybala is great but still has long way to go, its unfair to compare.

if i had one player carrying my team...i wouldn't boast about it. it's nothing to be proud of. Juve has a team, no one player is carrying anything.

Dybala has corazon and ability to blend into team unlike Messi who kind of , well completely , doesn't fit Argentina . So who is the problem ? Manager that can't build a team around Messi or Messi who can't play with his teammates ? I think it is the second because Dybala has no problem with fitting in and completes team into formidable force rather than one man show .