Hey, Liverpool, can we talk? We can have it in the car if you like — that way we can both stare straight ahead and not make eye contact, and then when it’s over we can all go on with our lives. The fact is, we can’t put it off any longer. We need to talk about Steven Gerrard. There comes a time in every star’s career when athleticism begins to fade. For some, that decline simply marks the beginning of a second (or third or fourth) act in their career; for others, it signals the beginning of a suddenly not-very-distant end. So the question for Liverpool and Gerrard is twofold: What kind of player can the midfielder become? And how likely is it that he’ll be able to make that transition?

The major issue for Gerrard is that he just isn’t as mobile as he used to be. At various points over the course of the season, Gerrard has served as the more attacking-minded half of a double pivot with Lucas Leiva (whose recent injury heightens the Gerrard conundrum all the more), the runner between a defensive midfielder and a creator in a three-man midfield, and, finally, most problematically, as the deepest-lying midfielder in a trio, and the more defensive half of a double pivot. That’s nothing new for Gerrard; his versatility, his inability to fit squarely in a position, has always been part of what defines him. In his younger days it was a strength. Now it’s quickly turning into a weakness.

The reasoning behind shifting Gerrard into a deeper midfield position is fairly clear. First and foremost, Gerrard is an icon, and he’s almost singularly responsible for the most iconic moment in Liverpool’s recent history. He’s a big enough star and important enough figure at the club that he probably gets to bring the ship down with him before he gets benched. So, if he’s going to be on the field, what’s the best place to put him? Well, given that he has mobility issues but remains a fantastic ball striker and can still regularly play defense-splitting passes like this …

… well, it seems natural that Gerrard could slide easily into the role of deep-lying playmaker. He could be Liverpool’s Andrea Pirlo.

In fact, when you look at the stats, as Ted Knutson did here, Gerrard bears a unique and striking (although not perfect) resemblance to the signature deep-lying playmaker of the last 20 years, the great Football Jesus of Juventus. Or, if you’d prefer that from Ted in visual form, here are Pirlo and Gerrard, profiling very similarly since the 2009-10 season.

Here’s the issue: Pirlo has always been an athletically limited player. He had shifted into a deep-lying playmaker role about a decade before AC Milan sold him to Juventus in 2011. So, while it’s true that Pirlo has undergone a tremendous renaissance over the last few seasons, that’s more attributable to Juventus catering an entire system to his lack of mobility and surrounding him with two of the best two-way midfielders in the world (Arturo Vidal and Paul Pogba). In effect, Juventus constructed a team specifically to allow Pirlo to continue to do what he’s always done best.

Gerrard has never been a one-dimensional player like Pirlo. His whole game has been built around his ability to do many things at once. Deploy him as a defensive midfielder and you’d get a better passer, dribbler, and shooter than any other defensive midfielder; play him in the hole behind a striker and you’d get an unparalleled level of defensive commitment from that position.

Hey, Liverpool, can we talk? We can have it in the car if you like — that way we can both stare straight ahead and not make eye contact, and then when it’s over we can all go on with our lives. The fact is, we can’t put it off any longer. We need to talk about Steven Gerrard. There comes a time in every star’s career when athleticism begins to fade. For some, that decline simply marks the beginning of a second (or third or fourth) act in their career; for others, it signals the beginning of a suddenly not-very-distant end. So the question for Liverpool and Gerrard is twofold: What kind of player can the midfielder become? And how likely is it that he’ll be able to make that transition?

The major issue for Gerrard is that he just isn’t as mobile as he used to be. At various points over the course of the season, Gerrard has served as the more attacking-minded half of a double pivot with Lucas Leiva (whose recent injury heightens the Gerrard conundrum all the more), the runner between a defensive midfielder and a creator in a three-man midfield, and, finally, most problematically, as the deepest-lying midfielder in a trio, and the more defensive half of a double pivot. That’s nothing new for Gerrard; his versatility, his inability to fit squarely in a position, has always been part of what defines him. In his younger days it was a strength. Now it’s quickly turning into a weakness.

The reasoning behind shifting Gerrard into a deeper midfield position is fairly clear. First and foremost, Gerrard is an icon, and he’s almost singularly responsible for the most iconic moment in Liverpool’s recent history. He’s a big enough star and important enough figure at the club that he probably gets to bring the ship down with him before he gets benched. So, if he’s going to be on the field, what’s the best place to put him? Well, given that he has mobility issues but remains a fantastic ball striker and can still regularly play defense-splitting passes like this …

… well, it seems natural that Gerrard could slide easily into the role of deep-lying playmaker. He could be Liverpool’s Andrea Pirlo.

In fact, when you look at the stats, as Ted Knutson did here, Gerrard bears a unique and striking (although not perfect) resemblance to the signature deep-lying playmaker of the last 20 years, the great Football Jesus of Juventus. Or, if you’d prefer that from Ted in visual form, here are Pirlo and Gerrard, profiling very similarly since the 2009-10 season.

Here’s the issue: Pirlo has always been an athletically limited player. He had shifted into a deep-lying playmaker role about a decade before AC Milan sold him to Juventus in 2011. So, while it’s true that Pirlo has undergone a tremendous renaissance over the last few seasons, that’s more attributable to Juventus catering an entire system to his lack of mobility and surrounding him with two of the best two-way midfielders in the world (Arturo Vidal and Paul Pogba). In effect, Juventus constructed a team specifically to allow Pirlo to continue to do what he’s always done best.

Gerrard has never been a one-dimensional player like Pirlo. His whole game has been built around his ability to do many things at once. Deploy him as a defensive midfielder and you’d get a better passer, dribbler, and shooter than any other defensive midfielder; play him in the hole behind a striker and you’d get an unparalleled level of defensive commitment from that position.

As the deep-lying playmaker, Gerrard will have to learn a new skill. The role combines two facets that have never been the focus of Gerrard’s game. First, when in possession he has to make himself available to receive the ball. Starting from the 2010-11 season, Gerrard received just under 55 passes per 90 minutes during league games, according to ESPN Stats & Info. That’s 10 fewer than Andrea Pirlo did over the same time frame. Defensively, Gerrard will have to commit to the nebulously defined task of “shielding the back four.” While basically every football fan on the planet knows the phrase, it’s pretty difficult to define precisely what it means. In general, though, if something goes wrong in a pocket of space in front of the defenders but behind the midfielders, it’s probably the deepest-lying midfielder’s fault.

It’s a big challenge for Gerrard, compounded by the fact that he simply won’t have the same quality of midfield shield in front of him. While Jordan Henderson is developing from a talented prospect into a versatile midfielder (and has almost certainly become more potent as a runner than Gerrard himself at this stage), he’s not Arturo Vidal, because really nobody is. And with Gerrard playing as the deepest midfielder, Liverpool have nobody to comfortably pair with Henderson ahead of him. Rodgers tried Lucas in that role, to somewhat hilarious effect, at Stoke. Joe Allen is a more natural fit, but he can’t stay on the field and is untested, to say the least, as a dependable week-in, week-out starter on a team contending for a Champions League spot.

Now, despite all that, manager Brendan Rodgers has some reason to hope. Gerrard clearly has both the passing quality and vision to excel in the creator role. He’s relentlessly good at carving open defenses with accurate long balls to create chances. He’s set up 0.9 chances per 90 minutes from long passes in open play since the 2010-11 season. That’s better than anybody in the Premier League except Juan Mata. The prospect of Gerrard spending games with time on the ball to thread passes to Luis Suarez is enough to make any manager giddy. All Gerrard needs to learn is to be in the right place at the right time. And Rodgers needs him to learn it quickly. He can’t bench the Liverpool legend, and with Lucas Leiva out for two months with a knee injury, it sure seems like Gerrard is about to get a lot of on-the-job training.

There’s a lot riding on the rest of this season for Liverpool’s iconic midfielder. He has to develop a skill he’s never shown before, with the future of his career riding on the outcome, in the middle of a Champions League race. That’s a tremendous amount of pressure. Then again, it’s not like Steven Gerrard is unfamiliar with rising to the occasion.

Subscribe to your heart's content.

But in this discussion, I am the one who has written pages of content explaining my position, in minute detail, whereas all the other party has done is say: "I like Pirlo!" and then start trolling in other threads.

If you disagree with my assessment of the topic. knibis, then I invite you to give me a counter-argument, and I promise you that I will treat it with respect and manners. You and I have had some big fights in the past, but I would like to move past that. If you disagree with me, then please explain why.

Or, if you don't feel you should have to, then simply say you disagree, and leave it at that.

But either way, please do not imply that my ability to write large volumes of analysis is indicative of some sort of embarrassment. I have demonstrated my argument in great detail. I am yet to encounter a single paragraph of counter-argument.

I have not a thing to be ashamed of, and everything to be proud of, when it comes to my work and my explanations. :)

Subscribe to your heart's content.

But in this discussion, I am the one who has written pages of content explaining my position, in minute detail, whereas all the other party has done is say: "I like Pirlo!" and then start trolling in other threads.

If you disagree with my assessment of the topic. knibis, then I invite you to give me a counter-argument, and I promise you that I will treat it with respect and manners. You and I have had some big fights in the past, but I would like to move past that. If you disagree with me, then please explain why.

Or, if you don't feel you should have to, then simply say you disagree, and leave it at that.

But either way, please do not imply that my ability to write large volumes of analysis is indicative of some sort of embarrassment. I have demonstrated my argument in great detail. I have yet to encounter a single paragraph of counter-argument.

I have not a thing to be ashamed of, and everything to be proud of, when it comes to my work and my explanations. :)

This thread came a little out of nowhere but at least it didnt progress as I thought is would...

so just to add my opinion to this thread. (cant believe people are even comparing both of this guys)
Gerrard>Pirlo by far...
People forget that Pirlo went from being a good player to legend when he joined Juventus. Before that Pirlo was a regularly good player in Milan which was on a downhill on his career, no wonder why he was let free by Milan.
If we had this thread back in 2006 Gerrard would have been called a god and undoubtedly one of the best in English football history.

I think people compare them because they are the same age, or similar and that seems to be a fair criteria to be able to compare them but they are not in the same stage of their career. Pirlo is definitely in his prime when has he ever played better? maybe last year? While Gerrard had his prime around 6 or 7 years ago... People probably will comment saying Im crazy and that Pirlo was as great with Milan but just before you do that, look up videos of Pirlo's skills and or goals, look at how many of those are from the last 3 years or so and then look at his stats, compare them. Last 3 seasons Pirlo is a legend for sure. Milan Pirlo was great but not nearly as good he is now, and nowhere near Gerrard.

^ I agree, if we're using that as the benchmark (and it's hardly a bad one).

I don't think that discounts Pirlo's talents, myself, and I don't think you're attempting to say it does; just explaining my thoughts. I think Pirlo's mastery of the ball deserves its own category of respect, and if Pirlo was not the superstar of his time at Milan, then I feel it quite fair to suggest that perhaps he wasn't recognized by his club as much as he deserved.

Either way, whether he always exhibited this kind of quality or whether or he managed to raise his game when he went to Juventus, what he does NOW is beautiful. I would not disagree with anyone saying that he is the best in the world at his position, and he deserves that recognition.

But as you say, Gerrard is just not comparable, since Gerrard's influence has been in full evidence for at least the last decade (more, if we recall his part in the 1-5 mauling in Munich, over the Germans in 2001) as the primamry engine and pilot of Liverpool. He steers his club, and has always steered his club since his captaincy began back in... 2003.

Yes, that's right. Gerrard has been the captain of Liverpool for 11 years, and looks nowhere near retirement. That's getting into some Zanetti and Totti territory, right there. Like Zanetti, he has lifted the Champions League trophy (though got to one more final), but alas did not win his home league, which is what Totti managed to do once in 2001, and of course Zanetti has done many times.

But if anything, that's the comparison which is most appropriate, I feel, to judge Gerrard's full worth to Liverpool, and to football, over the last 15 years. His side has been built around his talent for over a decade, and he's delivered their longed-for 5th European Cup, domestic cups, and has come close to winning the league across the full range of his career.

He's taken his club to 2nd in 2001, 2009 and 2014, with some 3rd places in 2006 and 2007, plus other 4th-placed finishes to keep his team in Champions League football for nearly the entire decade, in the toughest league in the world, and arguably only lost his place there because of the rise of City as a new moneyed powerhouse to join England's elite. Against the riches of Chelsea, the genius of SAF and Wenger and the pulling power that they can command, plus now City, Liverpool have not had the greatest of spells over the last 20 years, but one man has stuck there and brought them glory again, even during that spell.

And here he is again, in 2014, doing what he started out his career by doing: narrowly missing out on winning the league, with a team that is, 12 years later, STILL built around what this man can do with a football.

That's... incredible.

^ I agree, if we're using that as the benchmark (and it's hardly a bad one).

I don't think that discounts Pirlo's talents, myself, and I don't think you're attempting to say it does; just explaining my thoughts. I think Pirlo's mastery of the ball deserves its own category of respect, and if Pirlo was not the superstar of his time at Milan, then I feel it quite fair to suggest that perhaps he wasn't recognized by his club as much as he deserved.

Either way, whether he always exhibited this kind of quality or whether or he managed to raise his game when he went to Juventus, what he does NOW is beautiful. I would not disagree with anyone saying that he is the best in the world at his position, and he deserves that recognition.

But as you say, Gerrard is just not comparable, since Gerrard's influence has been in full evidence for at least the last decade (more, if we recall his part in the 1-5 mauling in Munich, over the Germans in 2001) as the primamry engine and pilot of Liverpool. He steers his club, and has always steered his club since his captaincy began back in... 2003.

Yes, that's right. Gerrard has been the captain of Liverpool for 11 years, and looks nowhere near retirement. That's getting into some Zanetti and Totti territory, right there. Like Zanetti, he has lifted the Champions League trophy (though got to one more final), but alas did not win his home league, which is what Totti managed to do once in 2001, and of course Zanetti has done many times.

But if anything, that's the comparison which is most appropriate, I feel, to judge Gerrard's full worth to Liverpool, and to football, over the last 16 years. His side has been built around his talent for over a decade, and he's delivered their longed-for 5th European Cup, domestic cups, and has come close to winning the league across the full range of his career.

Since his debut 1998 he's taken his club to 2nd in 2002, 2009 and 2014, with some 3rd places in 2006 and 2007, plus other 4th-placed finishes to keep his team in Champions League football for nearly the entire decade, in the toughest league in the world, and arguably only lost his place there because of the rise of City as a new moneyed powerhouse to join England's elite. Against the riches of Chelsea, the genius of SAF and Wenger and the pulling power that they can command, plus now City, Liverpool have not had the greatest of spells over the last 20 years, but one man has stuck there and brought them glory again, even during that spell.

And here he is again, in 2014, doing what he started out his career by doing: narrowly missing out on winning the league, with a team that is, 12 years later, STILL built around what this man can do with a football.

That's... incredible.

^ I agree, if we're using that as the benchmark (and it's hardly a bad one).

I don't think that discounts Pirlo's talents, myself, and I don't think you're attempting to say it does; just explaining my thoughts. I think Pirlo's mastery of the ball deserves its own category of respect, and if Pirlo was not the superstar of his time at Milan, then I feel it quite fair to suggest that perhaps he wasn't recognized by his club as much as he deserved.

Either way, whether he always exhibited this kind of quality or whether or he managed to raise his game when he went to Juventus, what he does NOW is beautiful. I would not disagree with anyone saying that he is the best in the world at his position, and he deserves that recognition.

But as you say, Gerrard is just not comparable, since Gerrard's influence has been in full evidence for at least the last decade (more, if we recall his part in the 1-5 mauling in Munich, over the Germans in 2001) as the primamry engine and pilot of Liverpool. He steers his club, and has always steered his club since his captaincy began back in... 2003.

Yes, that's right. Gerrard has been the captain of Liverpool for 11 years, and looks nowhere near retirement. That's getting into some Zanetti and Totti territory, right there. Like Zanetti, he has lifted the Champions League trophy (though got to one more final), but alas did not win his home league, which is what Totti managed to do once in 2001, and of course Zanetti has done many times.

But if anything, that's the comparison which is most appropriate, I feel, to judge Gerrard's full worth to Liverpool, and to football, over the last 16 years. His side has been built around his talent for over a decade, and he's delivered their longed-for 5th European Cup, domestic cups, and has come close to winning the league across the full range of his career.

Since his debut 1998 he's taken his club to 2nd in 2002, 2009 and 2014, with some 3rd places in 2001, 2006 and 2007, plus other 4th-placed finishes to keep his team in Champions League football for nearly the entire decade, in the toughest league in the world, and arguably only lost his place there because of the rise of City as a new moneyed powerhouse to join England's elite. Against the riches of Chelsea, the genius of SAF and Wenger and the pulling power that they can command, plus now City, Liverpool have not had the greatest of spells over the last 20 years, but one man has stuck there and brought them glory again, even during that spell.

And here he is again, in 2014, doing what he started out his career by doing: narrowly missing out on winning the league, with a team that is, 12 years later, STILL built around what this man can do with a football.

That's... incredible.

@Tuanis:
"This thread came a little out of nowhere but at least it didnt progress as I thought is would..."

this thread came out of here: http://footyroom.com/forum/world-cup-2014/england-1-2-italy-59377/6/

"so just to add my opinion to this thread. (cant believe people are even comparing both of this guys)
Gerrard>Pirlo by far..."

you can't believe that people are comparing the 2, and then you say Gerrard>Pirlo? please take a read to that other thread.

"People forget that Pirlo went from being a good player to legend when he joined Juventus. Before that Pirlo was a regularly good player in Milan which was on a downhill on his career"

i'm 34 years old, the legendary name of "Maestro 21" came out at Milan, where he also won:
2 CL, 1 Club Wold Cup, 1 World cup. (just quoting the major stuff). in 2000, 1 year before approaching Milan, he was already Golden Player and Top Scorer at the Euro U21, beside winning the whole tournament. in 2006 he was already man of the match in the WC final, beside being the Top Assist Provider of the tournament, and Bronze Ball after Zidane and Cannavaro (golden and silver respectively).

just a regularly good player, indeed.

@Tuanis:
"This thread came a little out of nowhere but at least it didnt progress as I thought is would..."

this thread came out of here: http://footyroom.com/forum/world-cup-2014/england-1-2-italy-59377/6/

"so just to add my opinion to this thread. (cant believe people are even comparing both of this guys)
Gerrard>Pirlo by far..."

you can't believe that people are comparing the 2, and then you say Gerrard>Pirlo? please take a read to that other thread.

"People forget that Pirlo went from being a good player to legend when he joined Juventus. Before that Pirlo was a regularly good player in Milan which was on a downhill on his career"

i'm 34 years old, the legendary name of "Maestro 21" came out at Milan, where he also won:
2 CL, 1 Club Wold Cup, 1 World cup. (just quoting the major stuff). in 2000, 1 year before approaching Milan, he was already Golden Player and Top Scorer at the Euro U21, beside winning the whole tournament. in 2006 he was already man of the match in the WC final, beside being the Top Assist Provider of the tournament, and Bronze Ball after Zidane and Cannavaro (golden and silver respectively).

just a regularly good player, indeed.

@Tuanis:
"This thread came a little out of nowhere but at least it didnt progress as I thought is would..."

this thread came out of here: http://footyroom.com/forum/world-cup-2014/england-1-2-italy-59377/6/

"so just to add my opinion to this thread. (cant believe people are even comparing both of this guys)
Gerrard>Pirlo by far..."

you can't believe that people are comparing the 2, and then you say Gerrard>Pirlo? please take a read to that other thread.

"People forget that Pirlo went from being a good player to legend when he joined Juventus. Before that Pirlo was a regularly good player in Milan which was on a downhill on his career"

i'm 34 years old, the legendary name of "Maestro 21" came out at Milan, where he also won:
2 CL, 1 Club Wold Cup, 1 World cup. (just quoting the major stuff). in 2000, 1 year before approaching Milan, he was already Golden Player and Top Scorer at the Euro U21, beside winning the whole tournament. in 2006 he was already man of the match in the WC final, beside being the Top Assist Provider of the tournament, and Bronze Ball after Zidane and Cannavaro (golden and silver respectively).

just a regularly good player, indeed.

@Tuanis:
"This thread came a little out of nowhere but at least it didnt progress as I thought is would..."

this thread came out of here: http://footyroom.com/forum/world-cup-2014/england-1-2-italy-59377/6/

"so just to add my opinion to this thread. (cant believe people are even comparing both of this guys)
Gerrard>Pirlo by far..."

you can't believe that people are comparing the 2, and then you say Gerrard>Pirlo? please take a read to that other thread.

"People forget that Pirlo went from being a good player to legend when he joined Juventus. Before that Pirlo was a regularly good player in Milan which was on a downhill on his career"

i'm 34 years old, the legendary name of "Maestro 21" came out at Milan, where he also won:
2 CL, 1 Club World Cup, 1 World cup. (just quoting the major stuff). in 2000, 1 year before approaching Milan, he was already Golden Player and Top Scorer at the Euro U21, beside winning the whole tournament. in 2006 he was already man of the match in the WC final, beside being the Top Assist Provider of the tournament, and Bronze Ball after Zidane and Cannavaro (golden and silver respectively).

just a regularly good player, indeed.

@Tuanis:
"This thread came a little out of nowhere but at least it didnt progress as I thought is would..."

this thread came out of here: http://footyroom.com/forum/world-cup-2014/england-1-2-italy-59377/6/
the argument was thoroughly disscussed in there already.

"so just to add my opinion to this thread. (cant believe people are even comparing both of this guys)
Gerrard>Pirlo by far..."

you can't believe that people are comparing the 2, and then you say Gerrard>Pirlo? please take a read to that other thread.

"People forget that Pirlo went from being a good player to legend when he joined Juventus. Before that Pirlo was a regularly good player in Milan which was on a downhill on his career"

i'm 34 years old, the legendary name of "Maestro 21" came out at Milan, where he also won:
2 CL, 1 Club World Cup, 1 World cup. (just quoting the major stuff). in 2000, 1 year before approaching Milan, he was already Golden Player and Top Scorer at the Euro U21, beside winning the whole tournament. in 2006 he was already man of the match in the WC final, beside being the Top Assist Provider of the tournament, and Bronze Ball after Zidane and Cannavaro (golden and silver respectively).

just a regularly good player, indeed.

yes^ but that was already in the Juventus period.
see, Tuanis' mistake in "recognizing" only the last Pirlo, is a very common one. Pirlo is one of those players that does his magic under the hood. except from amazing long balls and masterful free kicks that you clearly see, those are actions which are evident, like goals, they immediately impress the public. but the real Pirlo's magic its not exposed, evident stuff, and that's why most of the people don't "see" it. can't recognize its greatness, unless they are pointed at it, like it's happening in the last 2-3 years. Juventus fans in Italy, they were totally ignorant about how amazing Pirlo was before coming at Juve. once they started to see him play every sunday, getting educated on how he was ruling the midfield, his movements...they understood and started to go around bragging about the fact they got Pirlo. we ACM fans always mock them with stuff like: "woah, why you're so impressed about Pirlo, aren't you used to such class? for us at Milan, it's the standard" , and all that jazz.