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Jan 3rd 2021 EPL Standings
DarthFooty 22 days ago
Queens Park Rangers, United States 14 662

With it being the new year and all, I figured we could get some fresh perspective related to the current EPL table as it stands now.

  1. Liverpool 33pts
  2. Man Udt 33pts
  3. Leicester City 32pts
  4. Tottenham 29pts
  5. Man City 29pts
  6. Everton 29pts
  7. Aston Villa 26pts
  8. Chelsea 26pts
  9. Southampton 26pts
  10. West Ham 26pts
  11. Arsenal 23pts
  12. Leeds 23pts
  13. Wolverhampton 22pts
  14. Crystal Palace 22pts
  15. Newcastle United 19pts
  16. Burnley 16pts
  17. Brighton & Hove Albion 14pts
  18. Fulham 11pts
  19. West Brom 8pts
  20. Sheffield United 2pts

I think we all saw Liverpool being a team in the top of the table, so no surprise there. However, with the injuries they have had, I am surprised they are still on top. Of course, you have to factor the season for all teams, but still..

Seeing Man Udt tied for first is interesting given all their struggles early on. They still dont look like a confident team, but now they are in talks for a title run?

Spurs on a skid, but were they always a title contender?

Man City is moving up quickly...It was more surprising to see them so low in the table, but we all knew they would not stay there long. This team is too good and they will push things.

Everton and Chelsea both come crashing down. I wonder if they will continue to slide or if they can find their footing and move back up to challenge.

Arsenal won't win the title this season but they won't get relegated either.

Leeds has come down from their cloud.. Can they find some more consistency?

Wolves are a surprise for me. I picture them higher up and they do have time to move again.

What are your thoughts???

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Emobot7 22 days ago
444 10432

Good analysis as usual DarthFooty. Here some of my own thought:

Leed were never gonna be such an incredible team, especially in this season where its harder for player to rest. Bielsa weakest point is that he overwork is team. They started on the front foot but now that fatigue has started setting in, I don't expect them to consistent enough to aim for a much higher position than what they are currently at. Also, while their attack is pretty damn good, their defense is one of the worst in the league. Sir Alex Ferguson used to say: attack wins you games, defence wins you titles. Pretty much the problem with this Leeds team.

Wolverhampton should have been doing better for sure but we musn't forget that they lost one of their most important player in Raul Jimenez to and head injury for a while now. There is also the case of Adama Traore who was blocked from some game because of contract renewal talk and is now angry with the club apparently... His perfomance have been far less good than usual. All in all, I think if Jimenez can get back and that Traore get his older form back, Wolves would do a lot better.

Aston Villa been really good. El Ghazi and Grealish is a really good duo and their recent form is the main reason why Aston Villa been so good. That and their defense.

Tottenham for me need to find a way to play more dominant football against weaker side, a bit like they did against Leeds, if they can find a good between going all out against weaker teams and playing conservatively against top spot rival, then, I expect them to be more consistent.

Arsenal victory over Chelsea wasn't great but for me it was all they need to start finding their confidence back and get back on the right track. Still, I agree they most likely won't get anywhere near the top four spot with all the point they failed to get.

Chelsea need something similar to Arsenal to find their motivation back, they are not lacking a lot honestly, we seen in the city game that they are able to have good moment but they are currently a fragile team when it come to confidence. Lampard is in danger unless he manage some good results soon.

Thats all I can think of for now, maybe I'll write more later when I think of something else to say. :D

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DarthFooty 22 days ago
Queens Park Rangers, United States 14 662

Southampton beating Liverpool today just shows how crazy the table is this time out. 10 teams within 7 pts of 1st. It will be a pretty epic back half of the season. Gonna be fun to watch.

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SunFlash 21 days ago Edited
Manchester United, USA 16 3128

I still believe City are the best squad in the league. In all honesty, Liverpool won tons of points right at the end of matches last season, and while that's good, it's not sustainable. Van Dijk's injury doesn't help of course, but their issue atm seems to be scoring goals, so who knows.

United are good enough for top 3, they finished 3rd last season. But I'm not convinced we're the best team in the league. I think we can compete with Liverpool. I do not think we can compete with City.

Leicester are a wild card and Chelsea will get their shit together eventually. But they're secondary compared to the other three players.

Spurs are a Jose team so it's kinda bang or bust.

EDIT: Liverpool won 16 on their 32 games by one goal last season. Considering they only had 3 losses and 3 draws, that's a ton of games that could've gone the other way, and this season, are going the other way.

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I still believe City are the best squad in the league. In all honesty, Liverpool won tons of points right at the end of matches last season, and while that's good, it's not sustainable. Van Dijk's injury doesn't help of course, but their issue atm seems to be scoring goals, so who knows.

United are good enough for top 3, they finished 3rd last season. But I'm not convinced we're the best team in the league. I think we can compete with Liverpool. I do not think we can compete with City.

Leicester are a wild card and Chelsea will get their shit together eventually. But they're secondary compared to the other three players.

Spurs are a Jose team so it's kinda bang or bust.

Emobot7 20 days ago
444 10432

@Sunflash Yeah, gonna be perfectly honest, alway thought that since they fixed their defense, Liverpool has been quite weaker in offense, wasteful sometime, even when they did win the game at the end. That stat kinda prove it and it should really raise some red flags for Klopp.

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Footy_watch 18 days ago Edited
2 866

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I'm not interested in the positions if we don't win the league but I won't be surprised if we finish top 4

I'm not interested in the positions if we don't win the league but I won't be surprised if we finish top 4 as I dont rate any of the teams except City and Liverpool

ashwin1729 17 days ago
Manchester United, England 10 682

City is the team to beat. Pep got them playing close to their peak form. Won't be surprised if they win UCL this time around.

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Emobot7 13 days ago
444 10432

Welp, guess Ashwin was right, City is 4 point behind the current leader and got 1 less game played than their rival. Look like it might be between City, Liverpool United and Spurs if this keep up.

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Footy_watch 12 days ago Edited
2 866

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You deserve to be banned for even thinking bottlenham are in the race for top 3 let alone the league 🤦‍♂️. But instead you did worse and shared your outrageous prediction. We have more chance of winning this years champions league than the bottlers to win the league

You deserve to be banned for even thinking bottlenham are in the race for top 3 let alone the league 🤦‍♂️. But instead you did worse and shared your outrageous prediction. We have more chance of winning this years champions league than the bottlers to win the league. They just drew at home to the worst team and they've bottled many games already

You deserve to be banned for even thinking bottlenham are in the race for top 3 let alone the league 🤦‍♂️. But instead you did worse and shared your outrageous prediction. We have a better chance of winning this years champions league than bottleham winning the league. They just drew at home to the worst team and they've bottled many games already

You deserve to be temporarily banned for even thinking bottlenham are in the race for top 3 let alone the league 🤦‍♂️. But instead you did worse and shared your outrageous prediction. We have a better chance of winning this years champions league than bottleham winning the league. They just drew at home to the worst team and they've bottled many games already

Spurs challenging for the league? 🤦‍♂️

If we can keep partey martinelli and all of our current first team players fit i believe we can challenge for top 3

Spurs challenging for the league? 🤦‍♂️

If we can keep partey martinelli and all of our current first team players fit i believe we will challenge for top 3. If we had Ancelotti we would've won the league

Spurs challenging for the league? 🤦‍♂️

If we can keep partey martinelli and all of our current first team players fit i believe we will challenge for top 3. If appointed Ancelotti im certain we would've won the league

Spurs challenging for the league? 🤦‍♂️

If we can keep partey, martinelli and all of our current first team players fit i believe we will challenge for top 3. If we appointed Ancelotti im certain we would've won the league

Spurs challenging for the league? 🤦‍♂️

ashwin1729 12 days ago
Manchester United, England 10 682

I will reserve my judgement on Ole till end of this year- Dec 2021 to be specific. I think 3 full years is a good time period to judge. I'm in the middle so far- he's had his highs and lows.

He did the right thing in selling dead wood. He is currently top of the league, but that doesn't mean his tactics are great- its pandemic and other teams are also on the slump due to lack of training and match practise during summer and teams have been ravaged by injuries. His atrocious record in the big KO games. Let's admit it- tactics weren't the reason he got the job. I'd say they're mediocre at the best. So far his mantra has been "the United Way" with a lot of reliability on individual brilliance rather than custom tactics based on opponent. But after starting miserably last season, he managed to finish 3rd. Made 4 semi finals in his 1st full year. And is doing ok in the league this year. So, can't really judge him yet.

Liverpool will press and attack at home. Most likely, this game will be close to what we saw against Leipzig in Germany and since Pool don't have starting defenders, Ole may just get lucky and win on counter considering both Fred and McTominay will play. I still feel that 4-2-3-1 isn't this teams best formation. It will have to be 4-3-3 with Bruno and DVB in either in false 9 or CM roles interchangeably.

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SunFlash 12 days ago
Manchester United, USA 16 3128

I will reserve my judgement on Ole till end of this year- Dec 2021 to be specific. I think 3 full years is a good time period to judge. I'm in the middle so far- he's had his highs and lows.

Lmao I do not understand why so many United fans have this attitude. If we still had Jose at this point the entire fanbase would be sucking him off right now for being top in January, but because Ole doesn't have the same rep and gets characterized as a PE teacher, anything good United does is because of the players and not him, and everything bad that happens is because of Ole and not of the players.

Unworldly.

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Footy_watch 12 days ago
2 866

Yh I dont understand the ole hate

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Emobot7 12 days ago
444 10432

@Sunflash Hey you know what United fan want, they want results, pretty sure if Ole give them, most people doubting or hating on him will change their mind immediatly. Right now, he is in a good position but it will be wether his team manage to keep this up that will show wether he can take United to the next level.

Beside, you were talking about Liverpool barely winning a lot of their game last season (by 1 goal margin). United right now is somewhat similar, it wouldn't take a lot for them to not win their game. I agree fans shouldn't ask their teams to win every match by 2 or 3 goal margin but I can understand how some of their fans aren't yet convinced and remain doubtful to wether Ole can keep this up.

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ashwin1729 11 days ago
Manchester United, England 10 682

Lmao I do not understand why so many United fans have this attitude. If we still had Jose at this point the entire fanbase would be sucking him off right now for being top in January, but because Ole doesn't have the same rep and gets characterized as a PE teacher, anything good United does is because of the players and not him, and everything bad that happens is because of Ole and not of the players.

If he had good tactics week in and week out, majority of the fans would be satisfied even if he finished 2nd. I'm sure I ain't alone.

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SunFlash 11 days ago
Manchester United, USA 16 3128

Beside, you were talking about Liverpool barely winning a lot of their game last season (by 1 goal margin). United right now is somewhat similar, it wouldn't take a lot for them to not win their game. I agree fans shouldn't ask their teams to win every match by 2 or 3 goal margin but I can understand how some of their fans aren't yet convinced and remain doubtful to wether Ole can keep this up.

I hear you Emo. Liverpool was the best squad in the league last season, had just won a UCL, had the best frontline in Europe, probably the best defender in Europe, etc etc. They were a squad that deserved to win the league, they just weren't as good as their points tally suggested. Both the previous and following years of their title run in the league have seemingly shown that.

United is not working from a comparable position. This is a team that no one, and I mean no one, thinks is the best squad in the league. If United wins the title it will be by grinding it out and other teams slipping up. Which is what's happened so far and what fingers crossed will continue to occur.

But if we don't have the best squad in the league, and we're top, we're either lucky as hell (potentially) or Ole is a genuinely good manager that gets in right most of the time. Even in the games we lose, the goals are utterly non-sensical defensive errors or bad luck on set pieces. Nothing Ole can do about that. Would I like us to score more, yes, but we're grinding out results right now and you can't argue with results. When Jose wins 1-0 he's the special one. When Klopp wins 1-0 he's a Liverpool legend. When Ole wins 1-0 he's a tactical idiot carried by individual talent.

If he had good tactics week in and week out, majority of the fans would be satisfied even if he finished 2nd. I'm sure I ain't alone.

I can think of exactly two times this season when Ole was outdone tactically. Games like the League Cup against City, where United had more chances and City opened the scoring with their first shot on target in the second half off a set piece before icing the game when United was chasing it is not Ole getting outdone, it's his players not putting away several clear chances before then.

Idk man.

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Emobot7 11 days ago
444 10432

United is not working from a comparable position. This is a team that no one, and I mean no one, thinks is the best squad in the league. If United wins the title it will be by grinding it out and other teams slipping up

Thats actually a very good point. Its true that United squad is propably not as good as that of City or Liverpool, so obviously, we should propably be a bit less demanding when it come to how they win their game. Though I would still argue they might have the third or fourth best squad in the league, so in that regard, I still think they might be a bit more dominating against team lower in the table but like I said, thats a good point.

When Jose wins 1-0 he's the special one. When Klopp wins 1-0 he's a Liverpool legend. When Ole wins 1-0 he's a tactical idiot carried by individual talent.

To be honest, I cannot talk for other but my humble opinion is that I never been that impressed by Mou at United. Nor am I thinking Klopp winning with his Liverpool team by a single goal margin to be amazing (honestly I wish his Liverpool side would go back to score 3 or 4 goal a game like that season they first got Salah). Maybe other people were or are thinking so but i'm not.

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ashwin1729 11 days ago
Manchester United, England 10 682

I can think of exactly two times this season when Ole was outdone tactically.

Either we are watching different matches or one of us is delusional. 2 games? Are you for real? Let me guess- you just remember Tottenham and RB Leipzig away? Oh yes! Lets ignore that we were outplayed by Villa, but somehow escaped with a 2-1 win courtesy of a soft Bruno penalty. Wolves outplayed us, but we were lucky to get a deflected goal. Hell, even that first leg against Leipzig we were largely outplayed. Remember how Fred was a walking Red card against PSG and he still was not substituted? Most of our so called away wins in the EPL came courtesy of 5-10 mins of brilliance. Rest of the game, we were just sleep walking. We were outplayed by Brighton albeit we ended winning 3-2. So, no. Its not 1-2 games. I'd say we were lucky in about half of our games. Especially before December.

Even in the games we lose, the goals are utterly non-sensical defensive errors or bad luck on set pieces.

Our defence before December has been utter crap and has been solely responsible for our losses in KO games.
Defensive errors are on coaching. I am not even going to argue about this.

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SunFlash 11 days ago Edited
Manchester United, USA 16 3128

@ashwin

I'll go through this one point at a time.

1) Villa/Wolves/worse EPL teams

We did not get out managed in these games. Villa came out looking like garbage, only improving later in the game, we had twice as many chances, and at the time even with the PK debate there was a consensus United was the superior team. Wolves set a low block that has been the undoing of every top 6 club (especially us) for the past few years, and considering the counter-attack goals we've conceded against them in the past I don't blame Ole for setting up in a way that greatly negated that at the expense of attacking. We got a lucky goal, but Ole was not outdone tactically.

Brighton was a really poor performance and one of the two that had jumped to mind, the other being Leipzig. the Spurs game I hesitate the place all the blame on Ole, given the the first three goals and red card were all mental mistakes (improper CB covering, the FK mishap, and Bailly going full retard on marking). He probably should've then closed up shop, and he didn't which is his fault, but I don't think he got outdone by Jose tactically. I know, we got pounded, but what was most frusterating about it was there was no one scapegoat. 3 out of the 4 defenders gave away goals, Martial got sent off for no reason, etc. That's not on Ole.

2) PSG

The Fred issue wasn't the best player management I've ever seen to be sure. But this was a game that Ole set us up to win. United dominated PSG's setup for most of the game, created far better chances, and if Martial hadn't missed two borderline sitters, this wouldn't be a conversation. PSG converted difficult chances, United missed simple ones.

This leads me into a really key point that cannot be overlooked and I think you misunderstand.

Mangers do not score goals or concede goals. They put their team in a position to do one, or the other.

Often this season, in the games we've dropped points, United had more chances. Better chances. Conceded unlucky/stupid goals. This is not Ole's responsibility. Twice Ole played for a draw, once against Arsenal (bit silly in retrospect) and against City in the league. Nearly every other game United had more/better chances to win and given the fact we're top of the league - more often than not capitalized on them.

3)

Our defence before December has been utter crap and has been solely responsible for our losses in KO games.
Defensive errors are on coaching. I am not even going to argue about this.

Most of what I've said so far has been subjective and is open to interpretation. This part is not.

You are wrong on this. And the fact you don't want to discuss it means you probably already know.

Coaching is designed to improve cohesion, encourage players to make good decisions, and increase ability. Basically 3 tenants: teamwork, mental, and physical. What coaching cannot do is eliminate mistakes. If Maguire is so desperate the clear a ball that he pulls down Shaw and allows Spurs to score, is that the coaching staff's fault? Or is Maguire's? If Bailly tracks the wrong run once in a game, despite tracking perfectly for the rest of the game, and it results in a goal, is that the fault of the coaching staff, or Bailly? Defensive errors CAN be on coaching. But oftentimes they're just mistakes. That's it. Van Dijk made several high profile mistakes before his injury, is that the fault of Klopp? No one suggests this, yet you feel free to do so for Ole.

But, this is honestly irrelevant, as Ole does not work with the defensive unit in training, so even if it was the coaching staff that was at fault, which it is not, that's not Ole's sphere of responsibility anyway.

TL;DR

Pushing Wan-Bissaka inside and letting March get look after look vs Brighton. That is a tactical mistake. John Stones scoring with his knee on City's first shot on target of the game like 60 minutes in is not. GOALS do not equal tactical prowess. They're strong indicators, but they aren't everything.

I'll cocnclude with this screenshot from a reddit post:

enter image description here

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@ashwin

I'll go through this one point at a time.

1) Villa/Wolves/worse EPL teams

We did not get out managed in these games. Villa came out looking like garbage, only improving later in the game, we had twice as many chances, and at the time even with the PK debate there was a consensus United was the superior team. Wolves set a low block that has been the undoing of every top 6 club (especially us) for the past few years, and considering the counter-attack goals we've conceded against them in the past I don't blame Ole for setting up in a way that greatly negated that at the expense of attacking. We got a lucky goal, but Ole was not outdone tactically.

Brighton was a really poor performance and one of the two that had jumped to mind, the other being Leipzig. the Spurs game I hesitate the place all the blame on Ole, given the the first three goals and red card were all mental mistakes (improper CB covering, the FK mishap, and Bailly going full retard on marking). He probably should've then closed up shop, and he didn't which is his fault, but I don't think he got outdone by Jose tactically. I know, we got pounded, but what was most frusterating about it was there was no one scapegoat. 3 out of the 4 defenders gave away goals, Martial got sent off for no reason, etc. That's not on Ole.

2) PSG

The Fred issue wasn't the best player management I've ever seen to be sure. But this was a game that Ole set us up to win. United dominated PSG's setup for most of the game, created far better chances, and if Martial hadn't missed two borderline sitters, this wouldn't be a conversation. PSG converted difficult chances, United missed simple ones.

This leads me into a really key point that cannot be overlooked and I think you misunderstand.

Mangers do not score goals or concede goals. They put their team in a position to do one, or the other.

Often this season, in the games we've dropped points, United had more chances. Better chances. Conceded unlucky/stupid goals. This is not Ole's responsibility. Twice Ole played for a draw, once against Arsenal (bit silly in retrospect) and against City in the league. Nearly every other game United had more/better chances to win and given the fact we're top of the league - more often than not capitalized on them.

3)

Our defence before December has been utter crap and has been solely responsible for our losses in KO games.
Defensive errors are on coaching. I am not even going to argue about this.

Most of what I've said so far has been subjective and is open to interpretation. This part is not.

You are wrong on this. And the fact you don't want to discuss it means you probably already know.

Coaching is designed to improve cohesion, encourage players to make good decisions, and increase ability. Basically 3 tenants: teamwork, mental, and physical. What coaching cannot do is eliminate mistakes. If Maguire is so desperate the clear a ball that he pulls down Shaw and allows Spurs to score, is that the coaching staff's fault? Or is Maguire's? If Bailly tracks the wrong run once in a game, despite tracking perfectly for the rest of the game, and it results in a goal, is that the fault of the coaching staff, or Bailly? Defensive errors CAN be on coaching. But oftentimes they're just mistakes. That's it. Van Dijk made several high profile mistakes before his injury, is that the fault of Klopp? No one suggests this, yet you feel free to do so for Ole.

But, this is honestly irrelevant, as Ole does not work with the defensive unit in training, so even if it was the coaching staff that was at fault, which it is not, that's not Ole's sphere of responsibility anyway.

TL;DR

Pushing Wan-Bissaka inside and letting March get look after look vs Brighton. That is a tactical mistake. John Stones scoring with his knee on City's first shot on target of the game like 60 minutes in is not. GOALS do not equal tactical prowess. They're strong indicators, but they aren't everything.

Emobot7 11 days ago Edited
444 10432

Have the acting Prime Minister as our LW

Can we just take a second to appreciate the brillance of that comment? XD

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Have the acting Prime Minister as our Lw

Can we just take a second to appreciate the brillance of that comment? XD

ashwin1729 10 days ago
Manchester United, England 10 682

Villa came out looking like garbage, only improving later in the game, we had twice as many chances, and at the time even with the PK debate there was a consensus United was the superior team.

If we were not awarded that PK, and the match ended in a draw, I wonder what your opinion of the game could have been. Anyways, to your point that we had twice the number of chances, its simply not true. I thought both teams had roughly the same amount of chances on that night when I watched the game. Rechecking stats today, 15-19 overall shots and 5-9 shots on target considering Villa had 3-4 headers that went out, but could have gone in on another night. As for being outplayed, yes, we were not outplayed, but definitely did not play well enough to deserve a win. Definitely did not play well enough for a 600 Million team against 100 million team.

Did you watch the Wolves game? We were outplayed in that game. If wolves had Jimenez, we would have been down 2-0 at half-time. I'm sure most people who watched this game agree that we were dominated for a decent part. So tell me what the tactics were to set up against a low block team- is to play lacklustre possession and play for a draw at home?

Mangers do not score goals or concede goals. They put their team in a position to do one, or the other.

I'm sure no one disagrees with this statement. The irony- can you explain how keeping Fred in the game placed United in a position to score goals or even draw the game?

What coaching cannot do is eliminate mistakes.

Sure, mistakes can not be eliminated- but they sure can be reduced. The argument is not about unlucky goals or improbable goals that happen. Remove the Tottenham game completely and say Ole is not at fault for argument purposes. Let me give you a very basic example. You as a defender foul the opponent and concede a free kick. What would you do? Stand close to the kick taker and try to block the pass or do you track back immediately to your position considering an opposition player is ready to strike? Case in point- AWB doesn't track back to his position. Grealish passes to the striker and he finishes 1 v 1. This is basic defending. Any coach- regardless of the level- screams at the players to get back. Ole probably did that after the game, and that's not what we're discussing. Mistakes like these- caught ball watching- are very avoidable. And are coach-able. The same kind- has happened against Leipzig. Has happened against Leicester. Has happened against Palace- although, I discounted this due to lack of match fitness. There were probably others, but I can't remember more than this season. Most of these games, we won so they cover the cracks. But tell me, if the same pattern occurs, and the mistake is not reduced, how effective has the coaching been? How effective have your tactics been? Fergie would bench you if you repeated the same mistake. You make multiple points about one game- Tottenham- to support Ole, but what about the other 6-8 games of data that I presented?

Lets talk about Tottenham now. Even the Tottenham game- you claim about crazy goals that went in. But EVERYONE who was watching clearly knew United had no match practice. The defence looked shaky. So what do you do after you concede 2 goals and are down to 10 men? Like you pointed out- You set up shop. I would assume that the manager- of all the people knows this and would set up the team in the best position like you said above- But you conveniently disregard your own statement.

Twice Ole played for a draw, once against Arsenal (bit silly in retrospect) and against City in the league.

Actually, we played for a draw against Chelsea, Arsenal, City, and Wolves in the league. Wolves would have been a draw if not for the deflection. Villa would have been a draw if not for the soft penalty. That's 5 out of the 17 games played so far. Not 2 like you said. Even Westbrom would have been a draw, but that's a penalty.

So, TL; DR

Ole does not work with the defensive unit in training

This is the most ridiculous statement. Ole is the manager of the team. He is accountable for how the team plays regardless of who he works with in training. It is his backroom staff. His coaches. His players. If the players fail, its on him. If they do well, its on him as well. The point so far is his tactics have been mediocre and have not helped the team as well as they should have- and if the players have complete off days- which mostly have been besides few moments of crazy invincibility- the success so far will be short-lived.

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