Forum
{{ post.commentCount }}

Didn't find anything.

{{ searchResult.errors[0] }}



Henrikh Mkhitaryan to miss Europa League finals due to political reasons.
iHEARTfootball 5 years ago Edited
Manchester United 38 1000

Ridiculous news

Never mix football with politics. Why are we even seeing a final at Azerbaijan. There's a real need to boycott this joke of a place for a final.

0
  • History
Showing previous versions of this text.

Ridiculous news

Never mix football with politics. Why are we even seeing a final at this nation (no offence Azerbaijanians but no one realises you as a footballing nation).

Ridiculous news

Never mix football with politics. Why are we even seeing a final at this nation (no offence Azerbaijananis but no one views you as a footballing nation).

Comments
Marcus2011 5 years ago
Chelsea FC, England 277 6501

First of allow me to say this: it seems like you have missed the point where I went from supporting motion that it is despicable that he isn't allowed to come, to complete neutral after realizing that he is allowed, and now leaning towards conclusion that this just political show off and personal tantrum after learning further details. I hope I won't wright an essay, but i will try to do my best to make my clear point why i think so.

@quikzy You often assume a lot about others on this forum, but don't assume what I know, who I know and what I have lived. You will be very surprised, mate;)

A case which symbolizes the ubiquity of Armenophobia in Azerbaijan is the murder of Gurgen Margaryan. Back in 2004

You have brought the case of 2004 that has nothing to do with current issue other than being individual murder based on long standing hatred and insanity. We can't keep holding on to past as an excuse to demonize entire nation and especially make your case by highlighting one death ( this is bigotry). Are you a bigot quikzy? I don't think so.

It was an individual murder case incident, which will take another thread to discuss, but nonetheless despicably to some he is a murderer and to Azeri government he is a hero. History knows many people who were murders to one group of nation and heroes to others. ( This will take a lot of time to go over)

Therefore, a man ( maybe crazy or maybe sane) killing in unsecured event his long standing enemy, shouldn't be a shock. Event organizers should have foreseen that when they decided to put " **trained killers" with long history of hatred under the same hotel roof, it may turn into a conflict of some sort at least. I don't think Mkhi is going to sleep with trained soldiers in the same hotel.**

Again, European organizers dropped the ball there :) LOL It is like people in Europe don't understand anything outside of their bubble world.

As far as the Karabakh conflict - I agree, any conflict should be studied more thoroughly and perhaps, one day I will do it, but you are painting a complete different picture as if the Azeris were the evils from the beginning. It shows that you are far from being objective on this topic, and perhaps even ignorant. It also seem you have your own personal agenda coming from emotional outburst rather than cynical and cold neutral analysis of the conflict from different perspectives. There are many facts available that will show that conflict should never have been, could have been avoided and it dates back almost 100 years.

You are right, hatred runs way too deep between these nations and there are very good reasons for it but it is very equal on both sides. I personally witnessed it, because I have friends from both sides and they never speak in good light about others. They find it hard to reconcile due to unresolved Karabakh issue and past grievances. As longest that territory remains disputed and Azeri people won't be allowed to comeback to their lands ( yes about a million ethnic cleansed ones) , there will never be peace between them and both them are always ready to kill each other. They could turn this into Kosovo and both will be unhappy but unhappy resolution for both conflicting sides at times is the most just.

**Therefore, there are many cases that symbolize the ubiquity of Armenian hate towards Azeri people and it isn't based on one individual murder case. You need to stop with this genocidal victimization when both nations are ready to do that to each other and to be practical ( factual too) ethnic cleansing was done by Armenians in Karabakh region which in response Azeris throughout all the Armenian people in Baku but not nearly with same violence ( videos online are available if you don't believe it) ***

**Now, let me tell you why you are making a huge deal of this and act as if he will be massacred there. The topic of Karabakh is big, and I don't think it will add anything to keep this discussion on point. We all agree these nations hate each other and spilled blood of each other for the last decades and even decades ago before then.

0
Marcus2011 5 years ago
Chelsea FC, England 277 6501

@sunshine and @quikzy

Now, allow me to write it all out why I THINK IT IS HIS PERSONAL TANTRUM AND POLITICAL THEATER because boy you wrote a lot of stuff and i do hope you read it for your own sake. I will try to be short and frank

( Btw i am doing this while putting aside my work just to tackle the blind ignorance i just read).

  1. First of all, I don't know why J ews is an offensive word and blacklisted. Do we hate j ews here? Or what?

To imply that Arsenal fans are making a big deal out of this as an excuse for what happens on the pitch may well be true for individual fans, but does a tremendous disservice to Mhiky, Arsenal as an organization, as well as the vast majority of people that are genuinely concerned for his safety.

I don't mate what else do you need to ensure safety? Arsenal was personally assured and they wouldn't have talked to Mhikitarian and his family if they thought it would be unsafe. Everyone was creating panic, demonizing, calling the country super unsafe and calling Russians backward people ( for anti Pedophilia law which somehow became anti Gay in the west, I guess gays and pedophiles are same in the west) and urging others not to allow World Cup to be held in Russia. Yet, Russia guaranteed safety because their reputation was on the line which resulted in the most safest and funnest world cup of the last decade. Ignorance is bliss at times, i guess.

English fans were strongly warned that if they go to Russia, there will be blood hahaha yet, english fans went and cameback with such positive feedback about country and people! Gays, went to Russia and no one was killed or harassed in the streets! I bet even pedophiles that went to World Cup in Russia felt safe!

Sure, I will tell you other events of similar:

  • 2014 Serbia vs Albania : Serbian kosovans ethnically cleansed Albanians under president Milosevic. Who ironically considered a hero in their country and celebrated by Serbians. Who has committed genocide against Bosnians ( well recorded historical event). So, should we assume that every Serbian is a scumbag? I don't think so.

Should we have also Assume that Albanian players that traveled to Serbia, were in danger? Yes, but they were given guaranteed safety and nothing happened to them. It is shame that next time they met, it turned into brawl but in case of Arsenal we have one armenian player most likely coming off the bench and playing against VERY un-Azeri team Chelsea ..

So I assume UEFA dropped the ball there too when they organized European qualifier between Serbia and Albania. Not to mention Bosnia and Serbia, Croatia and Serbia and etc. Or maybe they are trying to unite this nations , because before flag has flown, things were going so well that both nations were actively negotiating new relationships in the future.

There are many similar incidents where players/athletes would go to nations that hate them and wish them death but safely compete because sport athletes are very well protected

  1. Right now in Baku there are several Armeanian athletes in Baku right now. Here are two of them, who are brothers and sister and I speak russian and they say how safe they feel and happy about organization, they go out and have fun in the city as well :

Also to add to that there are many Armenian athletes that go to Baku ( booing during the event is the most you will get at best) otherwise they felt always safe in the country. Armenian boxer who went to baku was more under threat ( because he is directly in the sport of violence) then apparently footballer from Arsenal. Mkhitarian is much more famous and much more protected than any Armenian athlete that is there right now and was there anytime before!!

Armenian wrestlers who went to Baku for tournaments, including the World Wrestling Championships in 2007 and the European Games in 2015 never once complained about safety! Which in my opinion they should be the first, because they are sort of trained killers

Mkhitarian drew unnecessary attention hoping liberals and snowflakes of the west will back him and they did! If he protested based on racism, or support for FANS, and Armenian fans safety then I would give him more support and understanding, but it is not and completely personal decision and politically motivated one. Because some Armenians were reportedly were denied visas, not all but some according to Arsenal fans but sh*t according to Arsenal, Mkhitarian is being taken to Auschwitz to certain death.

  1. I agree Arsenal is a big club and they should be able to ensure his safety, and then add to that Azeri government offering full safety measures. Add to that this is world televised event and it is only in their best interest to make sure that no one and absolutely no one even makes Mkhi feel scared. I am 100% sure Mkhitarian won't be place in the same hotel with other Azeri's and there will be secured perimeter.

  2. Did you know there Armenians living in Baku? Yet, did you know there isn't single azeri living in Armenia or Karabakh? Yes, I encourage you: you should look into that, because it does paint another picture too. Generalizing about people is very racist thing to do.

  3. MANY NATIONS BLACKLIST CITIZENS OF OTHER NATIONS Should we then disallow any sport events there? Your country Canada black lists citizens and entire nations. Untied States does it? But they allow athletes to compete because this shouldn't touch athletes. EXACTLY WHAT AZERI ARE DOING! It is ridiculous argument to say that nation shouldn't allowed to host. Man if we go through european nations, we have banned entire world from coming in because "fck them" and they are barbarians. Yet, we politely allow athletes to come and even celebrate with them, happy for them lol Case and point Muhammad Salah or Mesut Ozil just one of the many and many examples.

  4. Based on the past, should J ews still stay away from Germany? and Germans from Israel because you know they might retaliate or Palestinians in israel? They are all competing just fine

  5. Memory is a funny thing, it remembers only negatives and paints it's own truth, i suggest to revisit your courses on geopolitics.

  6. You have cited two instances and keep saying that "actions are more important than words". Sure, again I encourage you to look into experiences of other athletes that visited Baku, still staying in Baku and armenians now living in Baku.

  7. My analogy with United was to point that players were safe, and even fans were but often it is the fans who should be worried not famous players. Did Arsenal and Mkhitarian worry about fans safety? Probably, yes but they didn't raise any where near as much noise about it.

Phew;; I have probably left out many good arguments that will late come to my mind but to tell you one thing I learned: Sunshine and quikzy , are you both armenians? No worries because you defended Mkhitarian more strongly than my armenian friends. Who btw called him " a Coward " and "speculator" after they learned how much he was given safety and knowing that there are other not as much famous athletes safely competing. ( sport Aerobics) lol much braver than Mkhi.

The criticism directed to Azerbaijan and UEFA is incomprehensible to me after analyzing and taking into consideration all the facts. Guaranteed safety by the government, organizers and Arsenal themselves!

It is blown out of proportion because honestly, the guy is leaving this season ( arsenal will sell him ) and he didn't contribute to UEFA final as much as people make it out . As if he was the savior of the team lol he was mostly on the bench finishing matches. Victimizing yourself for political agenda is the last thing he could do for people to remember about him because I forgot he was playing for Arsenal!

P.s. I often find myself with strong opinions and I don't mean to offend but reason why I don't back down because I wasn't presented with single good argument with evidence that this is dangerous for Mkhitarian and it isn't political theater. Ambassador made a right statement : You are footballer so be a footballer and come play. I think part of the reason why he decided not to go is because he is afraid that he will play so sht and booed on top, that will be bigger embarrassment than staying away

0
Marcus2011 5 years ago Edited
Chelsea FC, England 277 6501

Arsenal fans are the biggest complainers in EPL. Always, something to complain about and they aren't even good reasonable complaints. That is why Arsenal TV is the most laughable TV on youtube. Yes, Chelsea has one too and every other club but Arsenal TV tops them all.

0
  • History
Showing previous versions of this text.

Arsenal fans are the biggest complainers in EPL. Always, something to complain about. That is why Arsenal TV is the most laughable TV on youtube. Yes, Chelsea has one too and every other club but Arsenal TV tops them all.

SunFlash 5 years ago Edited
USA 19 3260

@Marcus

There's nothing wrong with having a dissenting opinion. Even if it is a very strong opinion. What matters is the evidence to back it up, and yours (while I would interpret it differently) is satisfactory from a discussion standpoint.

I don't mate what else do you need to ensure safety? Arsenal was personally assured and they wouldn't have talked to Mhikitarian and his family if they thought it would be unsafe. Everyone was creating panic, demonizing, calling the country super unsafe and calling Russians backward people ( for anti Pedophilia law which somehow became anti Gay in the west, I guess gays and pedophiles are same in the west) and urging others not to allow World Cup to be held in Russia. Yet, Russia guaranteed safety because their reputation was on the line which resulted in the most safest and funnest world cup of the last decade. Ignorance is bliss at times, i guess.

The anti-pedophilia law you're referring to, if I remember correctly, was a bill designed to prevent children learning anything about homosexual relationships, under the pretense that it went against family values. The major criticisms were that vague wording enabled, form a legal perspective, any type of homosexual activity as in violation of the law and "pedophilia" provided that children could be exposed to it. Any way you choose to look that at, it is a state-sponsored effort against gay individuals. If I recall, the demonetizing/boycotting that occurred as a result was due to people not wanting to support a country that directly discriminated against gay people. I don't see an issue with that. It is Russia's right as an independent state to pass laws and it is the right of every person on Earth to have an opinion about those laws and choose not to economically support the state. You seem to have eaten up the wording of the law, assuming that the "West" took issue with Russia going after pedophiles, where in reality, the majority of critics took issue with homosexuals being labeled as pedophiles. If you believe homosexuals are pedophiles in every scenario and should be prosecuted (like the bill allows) then fair enough, that's your opinion and my opinion is that I think you're a terrible person. If not, and you got confused, happens to the best of us.

To give a hypothetical example, under the wording of the law, if you are in a gay relationship, it would be impossible for you to parent/mentor/teach/aid a child, because the child would come under some exposure to a homosexual relationship. If you operated a suicide hotline and a minor called asking if it was okay to be gay, you would legally have to tell them "no." And no, it didn't impact the sporting event because no one was stupid enough to walk into a stadium with a rainbow poster. But if they had... Just wanted to get that out of the way before we address the situation at hand.

Sure, I will tell you other events of similar:
2014 Serbia vs Albania : Serbian kosovans ethnically cleansed Albanians under president Milosevic. Who ironically considered a hero in their country and celebrated by Serbians. Who has committed genocide against Bosnians ( well recorded historical event). So, should we assume that every Serbian is a scumbag? I don't think so.
Should we have also Assume that Albanian players that traveled to Serbia, were in danger? Yes, but they were given guaranteed safety and nothing happened to them. It is shame that next time they met, it turned into brawl but in case of Arsenal we have one armenian player most likely coming off the bench and playing against VERY un-Azeri team Chelsea ..
So I assume UEFA dropped the ball there too when they organized European qualifier between Serbia and Albania. Not to mention Bosnia and Serbia, Croatia and Serbia and etc. Or maybe they are trying to unite this nations , because before flag has flown, things were going so well that both nations were actively negotiating new relationships in the future.

Generalization in general should attempt to be avoided at all costs, from a logical perspective it is unsupported, and from a moral perspective it's unethical. To address the question directly, should we assume that Albanians and Serbs actively want to kill one another? They, on a political/military level, certainly did once. Tensions obviously still exist. But the key to the answer you said yourself, at the end of this quote, the relationships are improving, the direct conflict is over, and people in general want to focus on healing. Not all, obviously, we can't generalize, radical nuts are everywhere. But on a policy level, and on a state level, the Serbs do not indicate that they want to genocide Albanians. I can have my disagreements with how they interpret history (fuck knows I have those disagreements with my own countrymen), in regard to their former president. That said, the sitting government was comfortable enough to (albeit controversially) send him the UN to stand trial for genocide. That would not have been possible without at least some internal support, which suggests even at the time not all Serbs were "bad guys" if we're going to look at this in a black/white setting. (I understand there were external factors. Regardless of these external factors, if there was not internal support his extradition would not have happened, and the populace would have rebelled. They did not).

I think the one thing we all agree on is that UEFA is incompetent.

Direct review of points:

1) As I said in my post, booing and death threats are commonplace. This does not prevent Armenians from competing.
2) Arsenal can certainly try to ensure his safety, but there are no guarantees. Presidents get assassinated with some of the best protection out there. If you want a direct example of soccer clubs failing to keep their players safe, look at BVB. None of them died, but players like Barta certainly saw the world a lot differently after that incident.
3) As I said in my post, Armenia has done a lot of shitty things. Do they impact directly Mhiky feeling safe in Azerbaijan? Not directly, because he is not an Azerbaijani in Armenia. That's a whole other conversation.
4) Trump is an idiot and I won't even try to defend his actions in relation to his travel ban. That any first world country would do that is ridiculous to me. The only hard ban in the USA that even compares to recently in the USA is Cuba, and that was a totally different situation because hundreds of thousands of individual "escaped" from Cuba and were welcomed into the USA. To this day, the make up a significant amount of Florida's population. That's the difference between a state conflict and an ethnic conflict. If the situation mirrored, the USA would be kicking out all its Cubans. They are not. (And objectively defend them rather strongly, more so than most other immigrant groups).
5)While I am sure there are nuts individuals out there, no one can deny that Germany has SERIOUSLY reformed since the 1930's. In this situation, the conflict is ongoing. If Germans had killed hundreds of J ews as recently as three years ago, then yes, I would agree. But this is not the case. (I know this point was meant sarcastically, and that's disappointing).
6) Embellish this. I feel as though those courses served me well, not because they set up what was right and what was wrong (they didn't) but instead they attempted to paint a picture of a situation, and why the courses of action taken by all the parties involved made sense to the parties involved. I in no way in my post outlined a right and a wrong between Armenia and Azerbaijan. I DID outline a right and a wrong between Mhiky and the Azerbaijani government, which certainly oversteps my classes. That is my opinion, and why I hold that opinion is definitively stated in this thread. Essentially, I do not think Mhiky is being unreasonable, as you do.
7) Like you said yourself, not all Azerbaijanis can be generalized. I can make statements about their government due to their policy and I have. I can certainly say that prejudice is a real thing there, and I could dig up statements made by Armenians that were submitted to Human Rights Watch/UN/Amnesty with very little difficulty to prove that. Anecdotal experiences are not universal, which is why they are anecdotal.
8) It's not a catchy headline. They have made statements about the fan experience quite often from my observation, and I certainly remember safety coming up at least once in the complaints about Azerbaijan (but it's overshadowed by the price, seat allocation, and the fact no one wants to go).

Phew;; I have probably left out many good arguments that will late come to my mind but to tell you one thing I learned: Sunshine and quikzy , are you both armenians? No worries because you defended Mkhitarian more strongly than my armenian friends. Who btw called him " a Coward " and "speculator" after they learned how much he was given safety and knowing that there are other not as much famous athletes safely competing. ( sport Aerobics) lol much braver than Mkhi.

Most of your points are in good faith, they are simply a difference of opinion, and that's valuable. This point is nothing of the sort. I'll defend any human being who experiences lesser treatment simply due to circumstances beyond any of our control decided before we're even born. Would I support those other athletes too? Of course. I'm a human being. Using my empathy as an argument against me is callous at best. I don't need to be in the "in-group" to see discrimination. In the USA, Uncle Tom's Cabin is presented this way, showing that white men could oppose slavery and black men could support it. My experiences, as a non-Armenian, are limited for this discussion, and entirely unobtainable in the first person. That doesn't mean I cannot feel sympathy/pity/empathy for those who don't look like me, talk like me, or don't have the same background that I do. And I'll die on that hill, so good luck arguing against that.

It is blown out of proportion because honestly, the guy is leaving this season ( arsenal will sell him ) and he didn't contribute to UEFA final as much as people make it out . As if he was the savior of the team lol he was mostly on the bench finishing matches. Victimizing yourself for political agenda is the last thing he could do for people to remember about him because I forgot he was playing for Arsenal!

Again, the role he plays for Arsenal is irrelevant. It has no relation to how safe he feels in Azerbaijan. And if his political agenda is "I don't want to travel to country that actively as a state has expressed a serious desire to kill me, me family, my hometown, and everyone like me" then I find it hard to argue with. That seems pretty reasonable.

P.s. I often find myself with strong opinions and I don't mean to offend but reason why I don't back down because I wasn't presented with single good argument with evidence that this is dangerous for Mkhitarian and it isn't political theater. Ambassador made a right statement : You are footballer so be a footballer and come play. I think part of the reason why he decided not to go is because he is afraid that he will play so sht and booed on top, that will be bigger embarrassment than staying away

Some of this I addressed at the start, but I'll say it again. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with us. I'm not even trying to convince you because this is the internet (lol) and because that's not my job. My job, as I perceive it here, is to present why I believe what I believe as clearly as possible. I made some value statements that I hope you won't read to much into, as they're very strong, they're more there to stress when I think you're being unreasonable in a situation that goes beyond a disagreement (in relation to gays + supporting those who are different). However, the second part of this quote, the Ambassador's comments, are something that has been BIG news in the USA in relation to the NBA, especially LeBron, who was told that he should "shut up and dribble." But why? Sure, the personal brand takes a hit (see: people burning Kapernick's jersey in the streets + his subsequent blackballing by the NFL). It's easy to support their freedom of speech when you agree with them, less so when you don't. If United had a literal N azi for a striker, it would damage their brand and his. That's a choice. It's a choice he's allowed to make, and a choice you're allowed to disagree with. Would I support the team? Probably a lot less. Would I support him? Absolutely not. That's a conscious decision on both his part and the clubs, to damage themselves in this way. This is why most athletes stay a-political.

Arsenal fans are the biggest complainers in EPL. Always, something to complain about and they aren't even good reasonable complaints. That is why Arsenal TV is the most laughable TV on youtube. Yes, Chelsea has one too and every other club but Arsenal TV tops them all.

If this is honestly what you believe then it seriously hurts your objectivity, fair warning. I didn't read this until after I read your other posts, and it was disappointing to see, a literal black mark on the entire argument. It says that you're predetermined to view someone from Arsenal in a poor light, and serve a confirmation bias that highlights incidents/actions that support what you already believe to be true. I'm not going to lie, I'm hardly objective myself, although I try to be, but I would hardly blurt it all out because I realize the damage it would do to how people perceive me and what I'm saying.

This is one of those posts that contains a lot of what I want to say, but not what I'm sure I should say. Guess we'll see how it turns out, but it's an accurate depiction of what I believe, why I believe it, and why I disagree with Marcus. I wouldn't try to garner anything else from it that doesn't fit under those 3 headings.

TLDR This post isn't meant for anyone but Marcus, I would not advise reading it unless you're really invested, which I can't see why you would be.

EDIT: Blacklisted word this time was N azi, should have guessed

1
  • History
Showing previous versions of this text.

@Marcus

There's nothing wrong with having a dissenting opinion. Even if it is a very strong opinion. What matters is the evidence to back it up, and yours (while I would interpret it differently) is satisfactory from a discussion standpoint.

I don't mate what else do you need to ensure safety? Arsenal was personally assured and they wouldn't have talked to Mhikitarian and his family if they thought it would be unsafe. Everyone was creating panic, demonizing, calling the country super unsafe and calling Russians backward people ( for anti Pedophilia law which somehow became anti Gay in the west, I guess gays and pedophiles are same in the west) and urging others not to allow World Cup to be held in Russia. Yet, Russia guaranteed safety because their reputation was on the line which resulted in the most safest and funnest world cup of the last decade. Ignorance is bliss at times, i guess.

The anti-pedophilia law you're referring to, if I remember correctly, was a bill designed to prevent children learning anything about homosexual relationships, under the pretense that it went against family values. The major criticisms were that vague wording enabled, form a legal perspective, any type of homosexual activity as in violation of the law and "pedophilia" provided that children could be exposed to it. Any way you choose to look that at, it is a state-sponsored effort against gay individuals. If I recall, the demonetizing/boycotting that occurred as a result was due to people not wanting to support a country that directly discriminated against gay people. I don't see an issue with that. It is Russia's right as an independent state to pass laws and it is the right of every person on Earth to have an opinion about those laws and choose not to economically support the state. You seem to have eaten up the wording of the law, assuming that the "West" took issue with Russia going after pedophiles, where in reality, the majority of critics took issue with homosexuals being labeled as pedophiles. If you believe homosexuals are pedophiles in every scenario and should be prosecuted (like the bill allows) then fair enough, that's your opinion and I think you're a terrible person. If not, and you got confused, happens to the best of us.

@Marcus

There's nothing wrong with having a dissenting opinion. Even if it is a very strong opinion. What matters is the evidence to back it up, and yours (while I would interpret it differently) is satisfactory from a discussion standpoint.

I don't mate what else do you need to ensure safety? Arsenal was personally assured and they wouldn't have talked to Mhikitarian and his family if they thought it would be unsafe. Everyone was creating panic, demonizing, calling the country super unsafe and calling Russians backward people ( for anti Pedophilia law which somehow became anti Gay in the west, I guess gays and pedophiles are same in the west) and urging others not to allow World Cup to be held in Russia. Yet, Russia guaranteed safety because their reputation was on the line which resulted in the most safest and funnest world cup of the last decade. Ignorance is bliss at times, i guess.

The anti-pedophilia law you're referring to, if I remember correctly, was a bill designed to prevent children learning anything about homosexual relationships, under the pretense that it went against family values. The major criticisms were that vague wording enabled, form a legal perspective, any type of homosexual activity as in violation of the law and "pedophilia" provided that children could be exposed to it. Any way you choose to look that at, it is a state-sponsored effort against gay individuals. If I recall, the demonetizing/boycotting that occurred as a result was due to people not wanting to support a country that directly discriminated against gay people. I don't see an issue with that. It is Russia's right as an independent state to pass laws and it is the right of every person on Earth to have an opinion about those laws and choose not to economically support the state. You seem to have eaten up the wording of the law, assuming that the "West" took issue with Russia going after pedophiles, where in reality, the majority of critics took issue with homosexuals being labeled as pedophiles. If you believe homosexuals are pedophiles in every scenario and should be prosecuted (like the bill allows) then fair enough, that's your opinion and I think you're a terrible person. If not, and you got confused, happens to the best of us.

To give a hypothetical example, under the wording of the law, if you are in a gay relationship, it would be impossible for you to parent/mentor/teach/aid a child, because the child would come under some exposure to a homosexual relationship. If you operated a suicide hotline and a minor called asking if it was okay to be gay, you would legally have to tell them "no." And no, it didn't impact the sporting event because no one was stupid enough to walk into a stadium with a rainbow poster. But if they had... Just wanted to get that out of the way before we address the situation at hand.

Sure, I will tell you other events of similar:
2014 Serbia vs Albania : Serbian kosovans ethnically cleansed Albanians under president Milosevic. Who ironically considered a hero in their country and celebrated by Serbians. Who has committed genocide against Bosnians ( well recorded historical event). So, should we assume that every Serbian is a scumbag? I don't think so.
Should we have also Assume that Albanian players that traveled to Serbia, were in danger? Yes, but they were given guaranteed safety and nothing happened to them. It is shame that next time they met, it turned into brawl but in case of Arsenal we have one armenian player most likely coming off the bench and playing against VERY un-Azeri team Chelsea ..
So I assume UEFA dropped the ball there too when they organized European qualifier between Serbia and Albania. Not to mention Bosnia and Serbia, Croatia and Serbia and etc. Or maybe they are trying to unite this nations , because before flag has flown, things were going so well that both nations were actively negotiating new relationships in the future.

@Marcus

There's nothing wrong with having a dissenting opinion. Even if it is a very strong opinion. What matters is the evidence to back it up, and yours (while I would interpret it differently) is satisfactory from a discussion standpoint.

I don't mate what else do you need to ensure safety? Arsenal was personally assured and they wouldn't have talked to Mhikitarian and his family if they thought it would be unsafe. Everyone was creating panic, demonizing, calling the country super unsafe and calling Russians backward people ( for anti Pedophilia law which somehow became anti Gay in the west, I guess gays and pedophiles are same in the west) and urging others not to allow World Cup to be held in Russia. Yet, Russia guaranteed safety because their reputation was on the line which resulted in the most safest and funnest world cup of the last decade. Ignorance is bliss at times, i guess.

The anti-pedophilia law you're referring to, if I remember correctly, was a bill designed to prevent children learning anything about homosexual relationships, under the pretense that it went against family values. The major criticisms were that vague wording enabled, form a legal perspective, any type of homosexual activity as in violation of the law and "pedophilia" provided that children could be exposed to it. Any way you choose to look that at, it is a state-sponsored effort against gay individuals. If I recall, the demonetizing/boycotting that occurred as a result was due to people not wanting to support a country that directly discriminated against gay people. I don't see an issue with that. It is Russia's right as an independent state to pass laws and it is the right of every person on Earth to have an opinion about those laws and choose not to economically support the state. You seem to have eaten up the wording of the law, assuming that the "West" took issue with Russia going after pedophiles, where in reality, the majority of critics took issue with homosexuals being labeled as pedophiles. If you believe homosexuals are pedophiles in every scenario and should be prosecuted (like the bill allows) then fair enough, that's your opinion and I think you're a terrible person. If not, and you got confused, happens to the best of us.

To give a hypothetical example, under the wording of the law, if you are in a gay relationship, it would be impossible for you to parent/mentor/teach/aid a child, because the child would come under some exposure to a homosexual relationship. If you operated a suicide hotline and a minor called asking if it was okay to be gay, you would legally have to tell them "no." And no, it didn't impact the sporting event because no one was stupid enough to walk into a stadium with a rainbow poster. But if they had... Just wanted to get that out of the way before we address the situation at hand.

Sure, I will tell you other events of similar:
2014 Serbia vs Albania : Serbian kosovans ethnically cleansed Albanians under president Milosevic. Who ironically considered a hero in their country and celebrated by Serbians. Who has committed genocide against Bosnians ( well recorded historical event). So, should we assume that every Serbian is a scumbag? I don't think so.
Should we have also Assume that Albanian players that traveled to Serbia, were in danger? Yes, but they were given guaranteed safety and nothing happened to them. It is shame that next time they met, it turned into brawl but in case of Arsenal we have one armenian player most likely coming off the bench and playing against VERY un-Azeri team Chelsea ..
So I assume UEFA dropped the ball there too when they organized European qualifier between Serbia and Albania. Not to mention Bosnia and Serbia, Croatia and Serbia and etc. Or maybe they are trying to unite this nations , because before flag has flown, things were going so well that both nations were actively negotiating new relationships in the future.

Generalization in general should attempt to be avoided at all costs, from a logical perspective it is unsupported, and from a moral perspective it's unethical. To address the question directly, should we assume that Albanians and Serbs actively want to kill one another? They, on a political/military level, certainly did once. Tensions obviously still exist. But the key to the answer you said yourself, at the end of this quote, the relationships are improving, the direct conflict is over, and people in general want to focus on healing. Not all, obviously, we can't generalize, radical nuts are everywhere. But on a policy level, and on a state level, the Serbs do not indicate that they want to genocide Albanians. I can have my disagreements with how they interpret history (fuck knows I have those disagreements with my own countrymen), in regard to their former president. That said, the sitting government was comfortable enough to (albeit controversially) send him the UN to stand trial for genocide. That would not have been possible without at least some internal support, which suggests even at the time not all Serbs were "bad guys" if we're going to look at this in a black/white setting. (I understand there were external factors. Regardless of these external factors, if there was not internal support his extradition would not have happened, and the populace would have rebelled. They did not).

amir_keal 5 years ago
Arsenal, Netherlands 66 2895

No one should miss a final because of politics, I don't know why this is such a debate.

0
quikzyyy 5 years ago
Arsenal 429 9002

UEFA forbid Arsenal from wearing Mkhitaryan tshirts


personal tantrums


that's probably the last thing you will hear from me on this topic, you have your opinion, I got mine, good luck on wednesday.

1