tiki_taka
11 years ago
Lol i dont know if my point was well explained, but i tried my best :) sorry for the bad language, i though it was nice to discuss diferent kind of coaches and diferent philosophies....
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tiki_taka
11 years ago
Lol i dont know if my point was well explained, but i tried my best :) sorry for the bad language, i though it was nice to discuss diferent kind of coaches and diferent philosophies....
Vendetta
11 years ago
I don't mean to start an argument when I say what I'm going to say. I mean this as a question and nothing else. I'm just curious.
Now that I've got that message across here is the question:
How come Pep was so easily excused from removing many legends at once in Barcelona yet when Mourinho tried removing one Real Madrid legend, he turned into the most hated man in Spain and in the club overall? What was the difference? Sure Pep had a huge deal of success that shadowed the departure of the many legends but do you guys really think Mourinho was going to just doze off at Madrid and not improve the squad? Sure he didn't bring in instant success like Pep did, but if he was given time and was given a chance to prove himself after benching Casillas I'm sure he would have done great in the season after.
Emrecan_58
11 years ago
Yes, You are right. I was thinking the same here. I prefer Ancelotti and Simeone over Guardiola and Mourinho too.
We know that Guardiola managed his playing style in Barcelona. But Barcelona has already the same playing style and probably it will last more. Whoever comes to Barcelona as a coach, I dont think That will change. But for Bayern; when they had Heynckes, their playing style was on players abilty and then Guardiola showed up and changed it with tiki-taka system. Like you said that's disrespecting the teams identity. For example I really don't think Robben should play tiki-taka.
But it needs time of course maybe next year they will apply tiki-taka better when they review this years matches,players and tactics.
About Simone, I don't think he will change his club for a while
Vendetta
11 years ago
Hold on there, Mourinho is known to do exactly what Ancelotti does as well. He's done it ever since he stepped into the Serie A. He also adapts his team to the opponent's style and tactics.
tiki_taka
11 years ago
Edited
^ Ancelotti would have used Mata as a main player, Mourinho just pick players near his philosophy and able to do what he want them to do, not favourising the one over the other though.
For your question, it was easy for Ronaldinho to leave, his form dropped and the results were very low, everybody was aware about his nightlife and lack of training...
For Etoo, i was furious and against Pep at the start, but the fact the squad has writen a beautiful page in Barça History and his perfect communication made Etoo departure for personnal choice look less important, Etoo explained it well in this interview :
For Yaya Toure never wanted to talk to Pep, i dont know why. For Zlatan since he said he had no problem with maybe the problem is mainly his bad relationship with Pep.
^ The second is the complete story but in French, try to find subtitles...
^ Ancelotti would have used Mata as a main player, Mourinho just pick players near his philosophy and able to do what he want them to do, not favourising the one over the other though.
For your question, it was easy for Ronaldinho to leave, his form dropped and the results were very low, everybody was aware about his nightlife and lack of training...
for Etoo, i was furious and against Pep at the start, but the fact the squad has writen a beautiful page in Barça History and his perfect communication made Etoo departure for personnal choice look less important, Etoo explained it well in this interview :
^ The second is the complete story but in French, try to find subtitles...
Dynastian98
11 years ago
@Ven
Because Mourinho made illogical decisions. He benched Casillas (the WC winning Spanish captain, and one of the best GK's in the world for the last few seasons) for Antonio Adan. And Mou started to lose matches. When Guardiola benched Zlatan for Messi, his results didn't change.
Guardiola didn't particularly bench players though. He sold Ronaldinho, Toure, and Eto'o, but used Eto'o and Toure aplenty when they were still at the club. It's just that he gained so much success after those certain decisions, Barca fans are willing to forgive him for that.
On the other hand, Mou's idea of benching Ramos for Nacho and Casillas for Adan was just dumb. First game Mou started Adan, he got sent off. Second game Mou started Adan, we lost 3-2. Seemed to be a recurring pattern after that. At least playing Varane instead of Pepe is logical. We didn't mind that. I don't think anyone did. Pepe will not be as good as Varane in the near future (probably isn't now), and Varane is one hell of a talent.
Getting into scraps with Ronaldo, Casillas, and Ramos didn't help either (Alonso's problems with him were revealed after he left). Madridistas are very protective of those players, and Marca is a Madrid-based newspaper. So if anything happens to them, they're going to spew bullsh*t all across.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's all Mou's fault. Obviously the players had mistakes too. We all know how hot-tempered Ramos is. But people often say bullsh*t like "Casillas thought he was bigger than the club". Yeah okay, how dumb can you get? Casillas has never once showed that he believes to be "bigger than the club". No one in Madrid believes that. Even Ronaldo stated that his personal achievements are belittled by the club's ambitions. Casillas and Mou had personal issues, and you can find articles on it online, and Mou treated Casillas unfairly. You never saw Guardiola have problems with Xavi, Iniesta, or Messi, did you? They're the equivalent of Ronaldo, Casillas, and Ramos.
Lodatz
11 years ago
Edited
^ Well, not quite.
See, the thing about Guardiola's relationship with Xavi, Iniesta and Messi was that he was one of them. He was the chief pupil of Cruyff, who laid the foundations for what La Masia became while Messi and Iniesta were trained in it, and had an instinctive connection with Xavi even beyond that, as both were players of a similar mood and intellect.
It also helped that Xavi bought into Guardiola's philosophy and teachings, wholeheartedly. The two of them would sit and study DVDs of training/games together, and work out how to move the team forward. The friendship (and shared childhood) of the players then helped Xavi get Messi and Iniesta to implement what he and Pep had come up with.
Players who had not been schooled at La Masia, and who did not jump on board with Guardiola's commands (Eto'o, Ibrahimovic, Toure, Henry etc) were basically shipped out and replaced with players who would be more loyal. Players who jumped on board (Abidal, Alves, Puyol etc) were treated fine by Pep. Ronaldinho himself was shipped out because he was by that point lazy and a bad influence upon the dressing room.
There's a pattern to all this. Guardiola wanted nothing (literally nothing) to be in opposition to his orders. He wanted a group of players who would do whatever he wanted them to, without question, and got rid of anyone who might be a challenge to that.
Sounds a bit like Mourinho, doesn't it?
Except, in Mou's case, he was dealing with an entirely different animal. Casillas and Ramos, for instance, may have been life-long Real players, and utterly dedicated to the club, but, they didn't have any actual connection to someone like Mourinho. And, it must be said, Real Madrid did not (and still do not) have a club ethos similar to Barcelona's. While La Masia kept on churning out players like Busquets and Pedro, who could be trusted to take over first-team positions, Real Madrid simply didn't have that kind of continuity between their cantera and the first team.
Instead, ever since Perez got his hands back on Madrid, he's gone for a policy of buying what he wants, instead of growing it from the academy. Jese and Morata may be the new, exciting youth prospects, but, they're hardly part of some great Real youth generation. Even Varane was purchased, as was Ronaldo.
So, when Mourinho came in and tried to deflate some egos, and force the team to follow his orders, he's not dealing with a group of players raised on the same principles as him, or even a group of players who share any real connection to one another at all. He was doing it to a team of (mainly) expensive superstars assembled by Perez, and who Perez would not be prepared to simply 'sell on' just because the coach wants to clear out any challenges to his authority.
Unsurprisingly, this did not end so well for Mou as it did for Pep, at Barcelona, even though when you really look at it, they both tried to do the same thing.
^ Well, not quite.
See, the thing about Guardiola's relationship with Xavi, Iniesta and Messi was that he was one of them. He was the chief pupil of Cruyff, who laid the foundations for what La Masia became while Messi and Iniesta were trained in it, and had an instinctive connection with Xavi even beyond that, as both were players of a similar mood and intellect.
It also helped that Xavi bought into Guardiola's philosophy and teachings, wholeheartedly. The two of them would sit and study DVDs of training/games together, and work out how to move the team forward. The friendship (and shared childhood) of the players then helped Xavi get Messi and Iniesta to implement what he and Pep had come up with.
Players who had not been schooled at La Masia, and who did not jump on board with Guardiola's commands (Eto'o, Ibrahimovic, Toure, Henry etc) were basically shipped out and replaced with players who would be more loyal. Players who jumped on board (Abidal, Alves, Puyol etc) were treated fine by Pep. Ronaldinho himself was shipped out because he was by that point lazy and a bad influence upon the dressing room.
There's a pattern to all this. Guardiola wanted nothing (literally nothing) to be in opposition to his orders. He wanted a group of players who would do whatever he wanted them to, without question, and got rid of anyone who might be a challenge to that.
Sounds a bit like Mourinho, doesn't it?
Except, in Mou's case, he was dealing with an entirely different animal. Casillas and Ramos, for instance, may have been life-long Real players, and utterly dedicated to the club, but, they didn't have any actual connection to someone liek Mourinho. And, it must be said, Real Madrid did not (and still do not) have a club ethos similar to Barcelona's. While La Masia kept on churning out players like Busquets and Pedro, who could be trusted to take over first-team positions, Real Madrid simply didn't have that kind of continuity between their cantera and the first team.
Instead, ever since Perez got his hands back on Madrid, he's gone for a policy of buying what he wants, instead of growing it from the academy. Jese and Morata may be the new, exciting youthj prospects, but, they're hardly part of some great Real youth generation. Even Varane was purchased, as was Ronaldo.
So, when Mourinho came in and tried to deflate some egos, and force the team to follow his orders, he's not dealing with a group of players raised on the same principles as him, or even a group of players who share any real connection to one another at all. He was doing it to a team of (mainly) expensive superstars assembled by Perez, and who Perez would not be prepared to simply 'sell on' just because the coach wants to clear out any challenges to his authority.
Unsurprisingly, this did not end so well for Mou as it did for Pep, at Barcelona, even though when you really look at it, they both tried to do the same thing.
Dynastian98
11 years ago
Edited
@Lodatz
You just about hit the nail on the coffin. But that's where Mourinho failed. He should've realized that he wouldn't get the same authority over the players because of their history, and should've taken a more simplistic approach like Ancelotti did. It's going fine for Ancelotti now, and Mou should've done something similar to be appreciated more by the players.
I just want to make it clear that all the people who talked sh*t about Casillas are wrong. Ramos and Ronaldo are known for being too self-conscious and too cocky at times, so it's not a surprise that their massive egos clashed with Mourinho's own equally massive personality.
@Lodatz
You just about hit the nail on the coffin.
I just want to make it clear that all the people who talked sh*t about Casillas are wrong. Ramos and Ronaldo are known for being too self-conscious and too cocky at times, so it's not a surprise that their massive egos clashed with Mourinho's own equally massive personality.
tuan_jinn
11 years ago
One point I completely agree is how Pep adapt the team to his most important players, Messi received loads of balls and he was the focal point on every attack... Tata had some of that but in the last few games, it seems other players can pass to whoever they think it's convenient.
In some games Messi ran and didn't receive the ball, addition to his already-scare-and-prepare-4-worldcup, this didn't help and he became what everybody painted him to be: lazy and just walk?.
May be Barca was affected by those "brilliant analyst and journalist": one part of the reason why Barca's football is to predictable is they keep passing to Messi everytime (I saw it on fox halftime commetator, I was like... god damn who give a $hit, it works). Then, people starts saying Messi is a dictator and if everyone doesnt pass him the ball he got mad, wtf... The more balls Messi has the more crazy $hit he would do to the opponent...
I hope Tata sort his tactic out right (beside buying a CB), and get the best out of his player like Anceloti does.
=====
Regarding Mourinho, I agree with @Dyn, we all know it's not all Mou's fault, but he is one hell of a character and his decision at Real was quite illogical at time. Same with how he bench Mata and say it's cuz Mata doesn't defend well... we all thought it was back then because he hates Spanish media and thus he hate Spanish players (just a feeling), so you know his decision can cause trouble sometimes
tuan_jinn
11 years ago
@Lodatz:
You said: "There's a pattern to all this. Guardiola wanted nothing (literally nothing) to be in opposition to his orders. He wanted a group of players who would do whatever he wanted them to, without question, and got rid of anyone who might be a challenge to that. Sounds a bit like Mourinho, doesn't it?"
I dont think so.
He needed his system to work, and we all knew that Zlatan is a hot headed guy so does Pep, Zlatan is normally the lead striker of everyteam he plays, but Barca has Messi, it's hard to have 2 lions in the same cage. Ronaldinho was already bad because of his life-style, he was at the edge of his career... Toure and Eto were different, it was the salary, future plan issues... Pep still used them but they left because they felt the club didn't appreciate them as much.
People sometimes try so hard to paint PEP as a bad guy. He was a captain before becoming a coach, a captain doesn't normally have that kind of think, a manager does though... Give Pep a little more time to build his system in Bayern, they dropped form at the worst moment, before that everyone scared of them
Lodatz
11 years ago
Edited
"Zlatan is normally the lead striker of everyteam he plays, but Barca has Messi, it's hard to have 2 lions in the same cage."
Truth. Especially when one lion doesn't play the way you want him to for the needs of the team, and even more especially if he's also one who routinely questions your tactics during training sessions, in front of the whole squad, which is what Ibra was reported to have done multiple times. He didn't like the way Pep played him, and told anyone who would listen, including the media.
I don't have anything against Guardiola. I actually happen to think he made the right choice, on balance, given how many trophies his team won. But Ibra didn't leave because he became disillusioned; he was off-loaded by Laporta upon Pep's request, much like had been done with Samuel Eto'o.
Eto'o, don't forget, was how Laporta shaved 20m off Ibra's price-tag. Eto'o had been essentially dropped from first team duty ever since he had shown up late for training one session. Pep apparently decided that this was a violation of the second chance he gave Eto'o when he first arrived (and was busy selling off all the playboy troublemakers, such as Deco and Ronaldinho), and spurned him from that day onward. There's a really good book about it all called The Making of the Greatest Team in the World, by Graham Hunter; a Scottish journalist who lives in Barcelona and is close to the club.
So, I really don't mention any of this to try and smear Pep. He did what he chose to do, and got a rich reward for it. I just see a lot of people try to make MOURINHO a bad guy, much more than Guardiola, and am just pointing out their similarities.
I guess we might have the chance to see what a super-rich club doing what Mou wants for the team, now that he's back at Chelsea, and if Abramovic decides that this time around, he should trust in Mou...
"Zlatan is normally the lead striker of everyteam he plays, but Barca has Messi, it's hard to have 2 lions in the same cage."
Truth. Especially when one lion doesn't play the way you want him to for the needs of the team, and even more especially if he's also one who routinely questions your tactics during training sessions, in front of the whole squad, which is what Ibra was reported to have done multiple times. He didn't like the way Pep played him, and told anyone who would listen, including the media.
I don't have anything against Guardiola. I actually happen to think he made the right choice, on balance, given how many trophies his team won. But Ibra didn't leave because he became disillusioned; he was off-loaded by Laporta upon Pep's request, much like had been done with Samuel Eto'o.
Eto'o, don't forget, was how Laporta shaved 20m off Ibra's price-tag. Eto'o had been essentially dropped from first team duty ever since he had shown up late for training one session. Pep apparently decided that this was a violation of the second chance he gave Eto'o when he first arrived (and was busy selling off all the playboy troublemakers, such as Deco and Ronaldinho), and spurned him from that day onward. There's a really good book about it all called The Making of the Greatest Team in the World, by Graham Hunter; a Scottish journalist who lives in Barcelona and is close to the club.
So, I really don't mention any of this to try and smear Pep. He did what he chose to do, and got a rich reward for it. I just see a lot of people try to make MOURINHO a bad guy, much more than Guardiola, and am just pointing out their similarities.
I guess we might have the chance to see what a super-rich club doing what Mou wants for the team, now that he's back at Chelsea, and if Abramovic decides that this time around, he should trust in Mou...
I noticed that since Guardiola is a Masia product and a Barça player, he only knows Barça style who suits Barça players ( because it is applied from an early age ), he took the team and optimized their performences just like Ancelotti did at Madrid, he didnt have to sign and he didnt seem to have a plan B the rare time we struggled and he was blessed to have Messi.
BUT, he gave himself another mission more complicated at Bayern, change a winning team style ( one of the most efficient teams of the decade ) and make them better.
Ancelotti for instance doesnt change a team who wins, but give adjustments and make the team optimize their potential, in other words, you take the cards and you try to make the best combination depending on the quality you have. It can be offensive, counter attacking or possession team depending on the squad.
What Ancelotti would have done at Bayern done is detecting the team most influencial players, and adjust tactics arround them just like Guardiola did at Barça.
Guardiola system is only efficient at Barça, Bayern players doesnt have the skills to make this system efficient, as they have better shooting skills than Barça. He is trying to export a system who is learned since la Masia with players adapted to this.
He recruited extra players to change the style while their was nothing to change in this team, i think he cant write the same story with Bayern, with this system and he needs to admit that you cant copy Barça DNA and inject it in a 28 years old player, you cant have the best from your team.
Mourinho has a different philosophy but he cant get the best from any team, he needs to create his own team. He cant be like Ancelotti, taking any squad and adapting to the quality of the squad and try to optimize. Many signings, many changes and specially one philosophy, the same exported in everyteam he managed.
What is good for Mourinho is that exporting his philosophy is not that dificult because it does not depend on tecnical skills or game fluidity, we all know what looks like a Mou team, at the end of the building it works and he wins trophies...
But how can Guardiola export his system ? How much time does he need and could players be obliged at the age of 28 to change their way of playing to this specific way ?
Anyway, he may not have succeded to make Bayern stronger but he is looking for a double, which is not bad for his first year.
What do you prefer guys ? exporting Philosophy coaches : Guardiola,Mourinho, Or optimazing quality coaches : Ancelotti and maybe Simeone ( wait till he change the club ).
I prefer Ancelotti/Simeone over Guardiola/Mourinho, Ancelotti can come for instance at Barça and let them play possession and adjust what needs to be adjusted, Mourinho would fire all tiny players and replace them with his typical style players without respecting Barça philosophy, thats why he will never manage us.
I think that Guardiola disrespected Bayern style of play, they have a big identity and copying Barça or trying to export a system is not respecting their identity. Im starting to understand Beckenbauer point, let the German shoot, let the English run and let the Spanish pass, exporting methods is killing teams identity.
I noticed that since Guardiola is a Masia product and a Barça player, he only knows Barça style who suits Barça players ( because it is applied from an early age ), he took the team and optimized their performences just like Ancelotti did at Madrid, he didnt have to sign and he didnt seem to have a plan B the rare time we struggled and he was blessed to have Messi.
BUT, he gave himself another mission more complicated at Bayern, change a winning team style ( one of the most efficient teams of the decade ) and make them better.
Ancelotti for instance doesnt change a team who wins, but give adjustments and make the team optimize their potential, in other words, you take the cards and you try to make the best combination depending on the quality you have. It can be offensive, counter attacking or possession team depending on the squad.
What Ancelotti would have done at Bayern done is detecting the team most influencial players, and adjust tactics arround them just like Guardiola did at Barça.
Guardiola system is only efficient at Barça, Bayern players doesnt have the skills to make this system efficient, as they have better shooting skills than Barça. He is trying to export a system who is learned since la Masia with players adapted to this.
He recruited extra players to change the style while their was nothing to change in this team, i think he cant write the same story with Bayern, with this system and he needs to admit that you cant copy Barça DNA and inject it in a 28 years old player, you cant have the best from your team.
Mourinho has a different philosophy but he cant get the best from any team, he needs to create his own team. He cant be like Ancelotti, taking any squad and adapting to the quality of the squad and try to optimize. Many signings, many changes and specially one philosophy, the same exported in everyteam he managed.
What is good for Mourinho is that exporting his philosophy is not that dificult because it does not depend on tecnical skills or game fluidity, we all know what looks like a Mou team, at the end of the building it works and he wins trophies...
But how can Guardiola export his system ? How much time does he need and could players be obliged at the age of 28 to change their way of playing to this specific way ?
Anyway, he may not have succeded to make Bayern stronger but he is looking for a double, which is not bad for his first year.
What do you prefer guys ? exporting Philosophy coaches : Guardiola,Mourinho, Or optimazing quality coaches : Ancelotti and maybe Simeone ( wait till he change the club ).
I prefer Ancelotti/Simeone over Guardiola/Mourinho, Ancelotti can come for instance in Barça and let them play possession and adjust what needs to be adjusted, Mourinho would fire all tiny players and replace them with his typical style players without respecting Barça philosophy, thats why he could manage us.
I think that Guardiola disrespected Bayern style of play, they have a big identity and copying Barça or trying to export a system is not respecting their identity. Im starting to understand Beckenbauer point, let the German shoot, let the English run and let the Spanish pass, exporting methods is killing teams identity.